Pat Buchanan’s Foreign Policy: Is this the way Trump thinks?

(2) russian bearA week or so ago on the McLaughlin Report the host raised the issue of Trump’s suggesting he might not go to the aid of the Baltic States – Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia – were they to be invaded by Putin and his Russian forces. Buchanan said he was against bringing the Baltic States into NATO. He added “we simply could not accept a nuclear war with Russia over whether or not they remained independent.” He proposed the next president sit down and negotiate with Russia saying we have no desire to get into a war with Russia which will escalate. He noted the Russians said they would escalate it to tactical nuclear weapons.

He went on to say: “Are you saying we should fight World War Three with Russia which we avoided during the entire Cold War . . . I would say to the Baltic States we are not going to go to war with Russia over your independence, period.” Which of course would be music to the Russians ears. It just about guarantees they need not negotiate since we have no problem with them gobbling up those states.

Buchanan fails to understand you have difficulty negotiating when you enter them with your hands up. He also seems oblivious of us having kept the peace and winning the Cold War because we acted from strength and showed our willingness to defend our allies.

There are over six million people in these countries. To Buchanan their freedom and democracy mean nothing. If Putin wants to steal it from them so be it. We Americans will be safe at home.  These colors won’t run but will certainly hide.

Buchanan also used the same suggestions when it came to the 45 million people in Ukraine. We were not to do anything to interfere with Putin’s actions in that country since we had no vital interest in it. He pretty much blamed us for Russia’s attack on it because the U.S. verbally backed the Ukrainian revolution. Better in his mind we should have condemned the people’s struggle to be free. When the Ukrainian people threw out the corrupt Russian-backed dictator Viktor F. Yanukovich it would have been better had we turn our back to them so to please Russia.

Buchanan wrote:  America has never had a vital interest in Crimea or the Donbass worth risking a military clash with Russia. And we do not have the military ability to intervene and drive out the Russian army, unless we are prepared for a larger war and the potential devastation of the Ukraine. . . . What is happening in Ukraine is a tragedy and a disaster. And we are in part responsible, having egged on the Maidan coup that overthrew the elected pro-Russian government.”

After putting part of the responsibility on the U.S. for backing the Ukrainian people in their desire not to ruled by Russia, he continued:But a greater disaster looms if we get ourselves embroiled in Ukraine’s civil war.” Notice how Buchanan turns a Russian invasion into a “civil war”. Buchanan went on: “Rather than becoming a co-belligerent in this civil war that is not our war, why not have the United States assume the role of the honest broker who brings it to an end. Isn’t that how real peace prizes are won?”

Buchanon’s simplistic idea that you can negotiate with dictators has no support in history. With respect to the Baltic States he said he would like to see the next president of the U.S: “sit down with Putin and deescalate on both sides of the borders . . . “ Somehow our response to Russian aggressiveness makes us a party to the problem.

I suggest and the Cold War demonstrates nothing brings war closer than announcing to an aggressor there is no downside to his aggression. We saw that under Bush I when his ambassador to Iraq told Saddam Hussein she did not think the U.S. would respond to his invading Kuwait.

Buchanan’s suggestion we negotiate reminds us of the past. We tried that with Hitler. It did not work out too well. Almost all believe that backing down to Hitler’s aggression caused WWII. Buchanan on the other hand suggests had we continued to back down to Hitler we could have avoided the war. Of course, since that did not happen anyone can come up with any suggestion as to what might have happened. He could as easily imagine Hitler becoming a big supporter of a new Jewish state around Jerusalem.

Buchanan tells us that Hitler did not want to go to war. It was Britain who caused WWII. It gave a guarantee to Poland that it would come to its aid if invaded. He said if only the Polish leaders had given Danzig to Hitler when he wanted it and not relied on the British guarantee the world would have remained at peace. In other words, if Hitler wanted something it should have been given to him. If you didn’t, then you are responsible for the consequence that develop.

That is what Chamberlain tried to do. Hitler said he only wanted Czechoslovakia. It was given to him. He said he did not want anything more. That was before he wanted Danzig.

Buchanan now justifies Putin’s actions. He wrote: “Did we not ourselves slap aside the hand of Russian friendship, when proffered, when we chose to embrace our “unipolar moment,” to play the “great game” of empire and seek “benevolent global hegemony?”    We are to believe had the United States not taken on this role then Putin would not have to seize other countries.

Buchanan suggests Russia taking freedom from these 50 million people is of no concern to the United States. He does not tell us when it will become our concern, if ever. Is Poland expendable? Romania? Czech Republic? Hungary? Austria? France? Europe?

Listening to Trump it seems as if he is following Buchanan’s playbook. Pacify Putin and he will behave. If he wants Vilnius, Riga, Tallinn, Warsaw, Bucharest, Prague, Budapest, Vienna, or Paris so be it. Where is it then that we will make a stand? Perhaps, rather than turning down Putin and having a nuclear war we will let him have Nantucket but let’s make it clear that Martha’s Vineyard is not negotiable . At least not yet.

27 thoughts on “Pat Buchanan’s Foreign Policy: Is this the way Trump thinks?

  1. Matt: some countervailing thoughts.
    1. The Ukrainian President was duly elected. He was deposed by a Revolution. About 150 people died during the Revolution. These deaths could have been avoided if the Ukrainian people waited 8 months or so, until the next election, and voted him out of office.
    Reports say several billion dollars were spent by outside Western groups/agencies to inspire the Revolution. State Dept. Official Victoria Neulen said, “We spent $5 billion re-orienting the Urkainians.” Remember, too, John McCain flew to Kiev waving the American flag in the early days of the revolution. The optics were not good from a Russian point of view. The Russians saw what NATO did to Serbia.
    2. Jingoism, fear mongering and war mongering don’t help. A Russian invasion of Paris and Nantucket? Hitler killed millions of innocent civilians. And you compare Putin to Hitler. The Hitler analogy is worn out!
    3. You say History teaches that we can’t deal with Dictators. We’ve dealt with Russia, China, the Saudis, the Gulf States, Egypt, for decades, on trade, weapons, and other issues. The end of the Cold War is an example of peaceful resolution. Beating the war drums solves nothing.
    4.. Buchanan is correct to urge peaceful coexistence. Detente works.
    5.. Tibet has 3 million people and we didn’t go to war to prevent China from exerting its influence there. We must recognize spheres of influence. We are not the World’s Policeman.
    6. Economic sanctions we can employ. Nuclear war is too horrible to contemplate.
    7. Make peace! I am troubled that we’ve moved nuclear weapons to Romania, and British, Canadian and U.S. troops are stationed in the Baltic States. Talk about provocations.
    8. Eastern Ukraine has a sizeable pro-Russian minority; they were not too happy with their duly-elected president being deposed. There is a mini-civil war occurring there.
    9. Crimea has long been a part of Russia and a recent Referendum affirmed the Crimeans desire to be united with Russia.
    Wikipedia: “The modern history of Crimea begins with the annexation by the Russian Empire in 1783. In 1921 the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was created. This republic was dissolved in 1945, and the Crimea became an oblast first of the Russian SSR (1945–1954) and then the Ukrainian SSR (1954–1991). Since 1991 the territory was covered by the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol City within independent Ukraine. During the 2014 Crimean crisis, the peninsula was taken over by pro-Russian forces and a REFERUNDUM on whether to join Russia was held. Shortly after the result in favor of joining Russia was announced, Crimea was annexed by the Russian Federation as two federal subjects: the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol.”

    1. Bill C., what you wrote is straight out of Kremlinoid Internet troll scripts.

      So you are willing to appease Rasha with Ukraine’s sovereignty. How nice for you.

      1. Yanukonvikt was NOT “duly elected.” As usual, vote falsification occurred in Ukraine, and Tymoshenko filed challenges. But in a “court” system that was rigged, her challenges went as expected – nowhere. The Orange Revolution in 2004 was over vote fraud. The Rose Revolution in Georgia was over vote fraud. In 2004, the fraud was committed by – Yanukonvikt.

      The people of Ukraine came out in 2013 after Yanukonvikt, who had promised to sign an Association Agreement with the EU, refused to sign it. Thereafter, Yanukonvikt and his mafia passed laws prohibiting prohibiting protests. Thereafter, Yanukonvikt and his mafia henchmen sent “police” to beat protesters – and the protests escalated. Thereafter, Yanukonvikt and his sovok mafia henchmen started shooting protesters.

      The protests started when Mustafa Nayem, a Ukrainian of Afghan descent and an investigative journalist with Ukrainian Pravda, now elected to Ukrainian Parliament as a reformer, posted on Facebook that people should protest Yanukonvikt’s failure to sign the Association Agreement.

      Putler gave a $3 billion “loan” to Yanukonvikt as an incentive for Yanukonvikt not to sign the Association Agreement. Now, that “loan” is being litigated in an English court.

      People in Ukraine could NOT have “waited until the next election,” because Yanukonvikt and his sovok mafia started severe clampdowns on society – in addition to vicious, unmitigated, voracious, unbridled looting of the country. Yanukonvikt believed that the president of Ukraine should be the wealthiest man in the country – and acted on that belief. Towards that end, Yanukonvikt’s dentist son became a billionaire within a few months after Yanukonvikt took office.

      The Serbs were committing mass murder. NATO stopped the mass murder. Naturally, Putler and his Kremlinoid thugs didn’t like that, because Putler and his Kremlinoid thugs depend on murder as a tool of government.

      2. It was Russians who coined the moniker “Putler.” Putler, together with his Kremlinoid thugs, is a murderer. That has been proven time and time again. I make a distinction between Kremlinoids and Russians. Putler is indeed like Hitler.

      3. The one who has been beating war drums – and in fact engaging in war – is Putler, in case you haven’t noticed. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova – in case you haven’t noticed.

      4. Detente won’t work with Putler, because he is nothing but a KGB thug, and he has killed and murdered people, and has engaged in war.

      5. “Spheres of influence”??????? Kremlinoid script. In case you hadn’t heard, Ukraine signed the Budapest Memorandum, which included Russia, which required recognition of Ukraine’s territorial and national sovereignty. That was done in return for Ukraine giving up the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in the world, on the US theory that “we don’t want nuclear weapons in the hands of crazies.” Well, as it turns out, it’s Russia and Putler that are crazy, and Obamatollah has now effectively given nuclear weapons to another set of crazies – Iran. Putler violated not only the Budapest Memorandum, but many other treaties, in waging war in Georgia and Ukraine. It is clear that he won’t stop unless he is stopped.

      6. Deploying nuclear weapons is something that Putler has threatened to do. Whether he knows about Mutual Assured Destruction is unclear.

      7. Putler invaded Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova, kidnapped an Estonian, buzzed US ships, buzzed national territories in Europe – and the US. Talk about “provocation” – a word quite liberally used in the Kremlinoid lexicon. Provokatsiya. Something Putler staged just recently in Crimea – and then falsely accused Ukraine.

      8. “Civil war” in Eastern Ukraine???????? The DNR and LNR were “established” by RUSSIANS who came from RUSSIA and declared themselves to be “republics” – backed up by RUSSIAN “non-soldiers” and RUSSIAN “non-artillery” and RUSSIAN “non-tanks” and RUSSIAN “non-weapons.” Before the RUSSIAN “non-invasion” there was no problem and no “civil war.”

      9. Crimea has NOT been a “part of Russia.” Russia was not the soviet union. In fact, Ukrainian historians have pointed out that the Turks and Tatars have a much longer historical claim to Crimea, and that there is a treaty which requires the return of Crimea to — Turkey.

      What I’m really wondering is how “Putler want, Putler take” somehow justifies violating the national and territorial sovereignty of Ukraine, and the breaking of peaceful post-WWII order.

      Crimea was invaded by “little green men” – from RUSSIA. And the REFERENDUM over which you are wetting your pants was not a referendum – in fact, as it turns out, the “voting turnout” in certain areas was over 100%. More importantly, the “REFERENDUM” was conducted at the point of a gun.

      But then again, you are simply quoting from the Kremlin script, so what you wrote I have seen many, many times – and it has been refuted and proved to be false many, many times.

    2. Bill:

      1. Yanokovich was deposed by a peaceful protest of his people (read Declaration of Independence – That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles). It was a pure Ukrainian event by the people who did not want to be brought back under Russian rule.
      Waiting for an election that would never have come and have been rigged would have been too late. Yanukovich and Putin would have locked Ukraine in Russia’s embrace and that would have ensure many more deaths than those killed by Yanukovich.

      2. Putin is well on his way to becoming a menace to all Europe. Perhaps a comparison to Stalin would equally apply.

      3. You cannot deal with dictators who like to invade their neighbors and who are right now threatening several nations that are around them without any reason.

      4. Coexistence is foolish talk as is detente in the face of an army which has already invaded a sovereign nation.

      5. We did not go to war to protect Putin’s seizure of Crimea or his invasion of Eastern Ukraine. We will have to do this if he goes further into Europe where we have treaty obligations to do this.

      6.Nuclear war is horrible but economic sanctions deter but do not defeat an invading army. Do we let Putin have whatever he wants because we fear his nuclear weapons? How then do we stop him?

      7. You are not serious that we are provoking Russia. Obama pulled out the missiles and other items that may have threatened it. He won’t arm the Ukrainians. He has put less than a thousand men in the Baltic states. That was Hitler’s line which he used to justify his invasions. The French provoked the Nazis by building the Maginot line.

      8. It is far from a civil war. It is a Russian invasion in disguise with the leaders of the invaders and all armaments coming in from Russia and taking orders from Russia.

      9. Crimea has been part of Ukraine for over fifty years; almost as long as Israel has been a free state and much longer than Kosovo or Macedonia. You suggest there is a time when a country can claim another nation because it owned it in the past. How many years would you give a country to keep territory. Look at the exchanges in territory after WWII. Can those countries invade the areas they lost and then claim them because they once had them.

  2. See Rule #4 of the Toddler’s Rules of Possession:

    “4. If I had it a little while ago, it’s mine.”

    https://www.k-state.edu/wwparent/humor/rules.htm

    Due to military conquest, nations such as Ukraine (especially the Crimea region), Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were once part of the Russian Empire and later, the Soviet Union. Modern governments are tolerated only so long as they are puppet regimes aligned with the needs of the Russians.

    Again, I would recommend Thomas Sowell’s book “Conquests and Cultures: An International History”:

    https://www.aei.org/publication/reasserting-the-complexity-of-conquests-and-cultures/

    http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0901/article_779.shtml

  3. 1. Be strong, but not militaristic! Many Americans are concerned that U.S. and NATO troops are stationed in Eastern Europe, on Russia’s border; NATO/US are conducting provocative military exercises in the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania. Imagine if Russian troops were stationed on the US’s Canadian and Mexican borders! Imagine if Russia moved nukes into Mexico as the US is moving nukes into Romania. We screamed when Russia tried to put missiles in Cuba, but now we put nukes in Romania. Are not US/NATO military maneuvers excessively provocative? Have we not become the militaristic aggressors?
    Remember how the World overreacted to the shooting of the Austrian Archduke in Sarajevo, triggering WWI, the condition precedent to WWII. Are NATO/US overreacting again Eastern Eurpoe, as they did in Libya and Iraq . (Remember the WMD)
    Negotiation, not saber rattling, is the way forward.
    Embrace Detente; reject ceaseless escalation! Reject the militarism of both the neo-cons and neo-libs.
    2. Make Russia an ally.
    Russia is helping us defeat ISIS. We’ll need more help in defeating radical Islamist extremists.
    Culturally Russia shares much with the West and has given much to the West: Engineering (Space-race) Science, Athletics, Arts, ballet, music, literature. Let’s strengthen our cultural ties with Russia. Let’s work together and grow together.
    3. Ronald Reagan once said, “A nuclear war must never be fought and can’t be won.” There will be no winners if the nukes are unleashed. Yet, NATO and the US still rattle the nuclear sabers. Wake up!

    1. Bill,
      Did Reagan overreact when we caught Khaddafi RED-HANDED, with intercepted written communications from Tripoli to West Berlin in 1986 when he blew up 50 Marines in a civilian discotheque?

      Don’t you remember the “Evil Empire” (Reagan quote)

      NOTHING Putin does is altruistic. His only goal is to expand Russian geopolitical and military sphere of influence…..he is a sneaky little fork-tongued ex KGB,……….. but he seems to have you fooled.

    2. Bill:

      1. Nukes to Romania. You are writing silliness. Here’s the true story: “An obscure website published a vague report Thursday making the dramatic claim that relations between Washington and Ankara had deteriorated so badly that the United States had begun moving nuclear weapons from Turkey to Romania.
      The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be any basis at all for the report, which alleged B61 nuclear weapons were on their way to Romania’s Deveselu base. Romania’s defense ministry promptly denied it and experts dismissed the idea as illogical for technical and other reasons.”

      You also buy into the nonsense our military exercises involving hundreds of troops is provoking the Russian armies that have more tanks lined up on the borders of these countries than there are NATO forces there. Putin does not need any provocation do you remember Georgia, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. He invaded there because he could.

      You suggest negotiations are the thing to do. They did nothing to have Putin give back that which he stole. Do you think you can negotiate with evil forces such as ISIS or Assad or Putin?

      ‘2. Making Russia an ally is like making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Russia is really an eastern country that has always resented Western culture and values. It is backward and suffering from a decreasing population. All around it nations thrive while it wallows in its corruption with no freedoms allowed. It is said it is a bad in Russia now as it was during the time of the Soviets with no democracy, free press, or free speech. It is Russian with its large armies that is threatening the West. To have it as an ally (which it does not want since corruption is so endemic – look at how far back it has been doping up its athletes) would be desirable but it does not want to abide by the rules of the West.

      3. The first one to talk of nuclear was Putin and his advisors who reminded the other nations that they have nuclear weapons and if necessary will use them. No one in the west has done this.

  4. Pat Buchanan is a bad target for a partisan Democrat to employ who is trying to discredit Donald Trump. He is a competent popular historian who opinions are grounded in facts, not headlines generated by the American propaganda machine during WWII. The policy advocated by Buchanan prevailed in Washington from FDR through Bush, pere.

    Roosevelt gave Stalin Eastern Europe at Yalta and before. Truman acceded to communist takeovers, especially blatant coups in Czechoslovakia and Poland. He supported anticommunists i Greece to avoid a Soviet naval presence in the Med just as Mr. Hitler did through his support of Catholic Franco in the civil war in Spain. Eisenhower lifted not a finger during the uprisings in East Germany in 1953 or Hungary in 1956. Kennedy allowed the Berlin Wall to be erected and later retreated from missile emplacements in Turkey threatened the USSR. Johnson stood by during the Prague Spring in 1968. Carter sat by when the Soviets invaded Russia in 1979. Reagan offered no forces to aid Solidarity in Poland but did press the Soviet economy until it collapsed at the end of his presidency. The elder Bush reached an accommodation with the newly reconstituted Russia.

    Then came the Neocons. Clinton and Albright tore up the the agreed to status quo and started to press towards the Russian border. This was a major policy pivot. It was a serious error. It was continued under the second Bush and under Obama. It should be understood that the neocons have a firmer control of the Democrat party than they do of the GOP.

    By dint of your advocacy you are a neocon. It is counterfactual to present your position as American policy from c. 1936 to 1993. Your cohorts are the directors of American foreign affairs from 1993 forward.

    Additionally the tired canard of appeasement and German aggression during the 1930s is past its shelf date. Chamberlain was not the soft negotiator at Munich, he took a hard line. Daladier was the weak sister and he had good reasons. Leon Blum had given away all the French heavy artillery two years before in support of the communists in Spain. The French generals told Daladier they could not risk a war without adequate armaments. It was not an unreasonable evaluation.

    But your greatest error is in delivering the punchline: “He could as easily imagine Hitler becoming a big supporter of a new Jewish state around Jerusalem.” But that is exactly what happened. The Haavara agreement of 1933 between the Nazis and the Zionists provided the capital and educated leadership that is the foundation of the Israeli state. Mr. Hitler encouraged Jews to migrate and use their wealth to purchase German goods. The Germans skirted the Jewish international trade boycott which then petered out as the money had to be used to purchase German exports and the Zionists got the investments and colonists they coveted.

    The first casualty of war is the truth. It has been over seventy years since WWII ended. We now have more than propaganda hand outs on which to base the context of present day policy. If you want an unnecessary war with Russia, vote for Clinton. She is ready to join Presidents Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt is sending American c soldiers overseas to die in unnecessary wars. Both were backed by Wall Street, as she is.

    My family has paid in blood for warmongering by politicians who were bought for press support, campaign money for the ethnic grudges of hostile minorities. Donald Trump represents a different tradition – America First. God willing and the creek don’t rise, Donald Trump will be our next President.

  5. That nonsense about the Jews is beneath civilized comment. Racism disguised as pseudo-intellectual quazi-historical gobbley-gook is more contemptible than the straight-up cross-burning neo-Nazi variety. Trump’s got his tongue stuck on the third rail.

  6. Matt

    You are right, Buchanan has long had his head up Putler’s ass.

    And Buchanan is wrong.

    But to say that Trump will acquiesce to the same thing is wrong.

  7. Matt and Elmer: I could, but wont, respond in detail to all the comments.
    1. Elmer: Serbia did not commit “mass murder” in Kosovo. You are thinking of Bosnia. In Kosovo, the Serbs were fighting the KLA whom the US listed as a Muslim terrorist group. International authorities investigated and rejected allegations of mass murder in Kosovo. Kosovars fled fighting between the KLA and Serbs, as civilians always flee war zones.
    2. You have presented the Revolutionaries’ version of events in Kiev. As for the police, the news showed Revolutionaries hurling rocks, etc, and shooting at them. Police were wantonly attacked, too. Matt; I’m not questioning folks’ right to revolt; I’m questioning the wisdom of it and the timing of it. If elections were cancelled, that’s when to revolt.
    3. Matt, you chide Russia for attacking Chechnya. Chechnya’s Muslim Rebels (an ISIS-like group) blew up hundreds of innocent Russians in a movie theater and killed over 100 innocent Russian school children. There was a radical Muslim uprising in Chechnya. Of course, the Russians responded.
    4. Matt, you mention Georgia. The Georgians invaded Abkhazia (sp) and South Ossetia; of course the Russians pushed back.
    5. As for Crimea, it looks to me like Moscow exercised direct or indirect control over the Crimea from 1783 to 1991 (from 1945-1991 as a subset of the Soviet Union; Ukraine’s claim seems tenuous.)
    6. Of course, all elections and every referendum can be disputed. Democrats are still saying Gore won Florida.
    7. Matt’s right that recent reports say US nukes will not move from Turkey to Romania, but in late July and throughout August the Internet was swarming with rumors. Maybe the rumors put the kibosh on the US/NATO’s plans.
    8. We’ve had relative detente with Russia since the end of World War II. Yes Russia occupied Hungary and Czechoslovakia; yes it made brief incursions into the Ukraine; and yes the US/NATO massively invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and bombed Libya, Syria, and Serbia. Whose killed more in the last 25 years; Russia or US/NATO. There’s 50,000 deaths in Libya, hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Syria, etc. NATO formed as a defensive org, is now an aggressor.
    9. The fact is the Cold War ended peacefully. Give peace a chance.
    10. If US/NATO pulled back their troops from Russia’s border, perhaps Russia would do the same. Detente and de-escalation work!!!
    11. It’s OK for the US to beef up pro-Western armies and pro-Western rebels (ex. in Syria) but it is not OK for Russia to beef up pro-Russians anywhere?
    12. Enjoy your vacation.

    1. Bill C, the only thing you left out of your Kremlinoid-generated script is the references to the CIA and Victoria Nuland handing out cookies – according to Kremlinoids and their adherents, sufficient cause to invade Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

      Abkhazia and Ossetia were part of Georgia, not Russia. Russia was not being attacked. Russia invaded Georgia.

      I have heard about the “slavic brother” Serbs so many times – that also has been used by Kremlinoids to justify the killing and war generated by Serbs.

      George Kennan recognized the true nature of Kremlinoids quite a while back – with Russia, you are either a vassal or an enemy.

      The protesters in Kyiv were reacting to a regime which started shooting at them. The protests started out peacefully. Then Yanukonvikt decided to use snipers. Guns – sniper rifles – against rocks does not justify Yanukonvikt and his gang killing protesters.

      In Ukraine, there were no elections under the Party of Regions. Yanukonvikt and his sovok mafia controlled the Election Commission, and they operated under Sralin’s maxim – “it’s not important who votes, it’s important who counts the votes.”

      Elections in Ukraine have been uncertain as far as regular schedules.

      In the meantime, as I said before, and what has not sunk in to your Kremlinoid infested brain is that Yanukonvikt and his gang passed laws suppressing freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of the press (including the killing of journalists) and other basic rights.

      For example – There was an “anti-helmet” law – and people in Ukraine responded by wearing pots and pans on their heads.

      This was all part of a package of laws enacted very quickly for only one purpose – to keep Yanukonvikt and his mafia in power, and to erode and eliminate any democratic rights that had been so hard-won since the Orange Revolution in 2004.

      So people were supposed to “wait a little while”, while all their rights were completely taken away, Yanukonvikt continued to rape the nation, with no prospect of elections taking place.

      You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, Bill C.

      1. Elmer, I disagree. I do know what I’m talking about. How are the military and economic situations in the Ukraine since the Revolution? Would not it have been better to shed less blood (in Kiev and in the East), spend less money, get the support of all Ukrainians (East and West) and oust Yanukovitch by elections? He was a lousy leader. He was widely disliked. The peaceful course would have been the better course. As said, elections were less than one year away, as I understand it. Hell, you talk about suppressing free speech and free association? The Mass Courts did that to the South Boston Veterans for over three years, and yet they took the peaceful route to settling the St. Pat’s Parade case.
        If the peaceful road was take, there would be no uprising in the East.

  8. Collection of surveys about sentiment in Eastern Ukraine (including Donbas) immediately before and during the war with Russia:

    http://romaninukraine.com/collection-of-surveys-about-sentiment-in-e-ukraine/

    It’s important to remember that the first people killed in Donetsk were pro-Ukrainian demonstrators. Russian thugs were bussed in to smash the pro-Ukrainian rally, and they did. Russians employed a similar tactic of busing in hooligans to riot in Tallinn Estonia after Estonians moved some Soviet monuments.

  9. Elmer: 1. Some police snipers shot at protesters in Kiev, you’re right; some protesters shot at police. 18 police died; over 100 protesters. Who shot first and who first threw bricks, Molotov cocktails, etc?
    2. Ukraine has struggled for independence from Russia for centuries. The Tsars controlled it for centuries; the Soviets for over 70 years. Reagan and John Paul II helped Ukraine and Poland become free, yet many Americans of Polish and Ukrainian backgrounds don’t support Reagan’s geopolitical ideas: peace through strength; detente; olive branches, not saber rattling and fear mongering.
    3. South Ossetia declared its independence from Georgia in 1990. It fought for its independence and won, as the US fought for its independence from Britain, and as Kosovars fought for their independence from Serbia. Georgia subsequently invaded South Ossetia, whom Russia aided.
    Abkhazia was a former Independent Soviet Republic up to 1989. It too then fought for its independence and won in the 1990s.
    Georgia sent armed forces into both areas. Georgia lost in both places.
    Paradoxically, Russia gave aid to both Georgia and Abkhazia. Russia eventually brokered peace there. However, Russia unequivocally supported South Ossetia after Georgia’s invasion. Russia eventually brokered peace in South Ossetia, too.
    Today, South Ossetia and Abkhazia are viewed as independent states; as is Kosovo.
    4. Another separatist movement is active in Eastern Ukraine, in areas where ethnic Russians represent about 40% of the people. International efforts are underway to peacefully resolve that separatist dispute in Eastern Ukraine, too.
    5. The Crimea: As I’ve said: There was a Referendum in Crimea. Russia won. You say the Referendum was fixed and was held at gunpoint. Others say it was open and fair.
    6. There are many shades of grades in all these conflicts.
    7. I love the Russian people, the Ukrainian people, the Serbian people.
    I remember the Russians supported Lincoln during the Civil War and helped us defeat Hitler during World War II.
    8. I know Stalin and Hitler were bad, but Khrushev, Gorbachev, Putin, I see as trying to do the right thing.
    I am presenting a pro-Russian point of view. It’s pro-peace. Pro-peaceful coexistence. 9. Russia today is not the Evil Empire under Stalin, nor even Reagan’s Evil Empire of the 1980s. Remember, in 1988, Reagan visited Russia and when asked if he thought Russia was still an evil empire he emphatically said, “No”!
    10. Putin’s Russia has a different geo-political viewpoint from the U.S. , NATO and the Oil Sheiks. Different views don’t make people “evil”.

    1. Well, well, well – “some police” shot at protesters. What the hell were “some police” doing shooting at protesters, since there were entirely peaceful protests before “some police” started shooting and killing protesters???????

      The soviets, and now Putler’s Kremlinoid gang, have always claimed that they are “pro-peace” – as long as they have their boots on your neck.

      As it turns out, they are so “pro-peace” that Putler has invaded several countries – oops, he has “not invaded” several countries, but somehow “non-Russian soldiers” and “non-Russian weapons” wound up outside of Russia.

      Putler has created a wasteland out of Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, and now Syria as well.

      Efforts at peace? They may be international, but Putler and his gang are having none of it.

      There were 15 republics in the sovok union. Abkhazia was not one of them. Abkhazia had a sort of autonomous status within Georgia – but it was controlled by central soviet authorities.

      The 15 republics from 1940 to 1991 were:

      Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belorussia (see Belarus), Estonia, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia (see Kyrgyzstan), Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia (see Moldova), Russia, Tadzhikistan (see Tajikistan), Turkmenistan, Ukraine, and Uzbekistan

      You are not representing anything other than a pro-Kremlinoid view, which is a sick and twisted view, in which Putler believes that whatever he wants, he is entitled to get, and in which logic is turned on its head, and in which truth has no function or place.

      Neither does a free press or free and open speech. Just ask all the dead journalists, and just ask Boris Nemtsov – oops, he was killed for opposing Putler.

  10. 1. Elmer, you are confusing Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republics with Soviet Socialists Republics within the Soviet Union. Abkhazia was an ASSR.
    2. The vast majority of citizens of Abkhazia and South Ossetia favor Independence from Georgia. Russia recognizes their Independence, as do a handful of other countries (Nicaragua, Venezuela). Russia does not recognize Kosovo’s independence, but Russia calls out glaring Western Hypocrisy which argued 90% of Kosovars wanted independence, but ignored 90% of Ossetians clamoring for their Independence.
    3. I have read histories of Kiev’s 2014 Protests that say protesters were shooting at police and hurling dangerous objects at police. “Peaceful” protesters did not kill 18 police and cause serious injuries to scores more. I’ve read too, that some police shot at “innocent protesters” and I’ve read that some police shot at “violent” protesters.
    4. Wikipedia: “A comprehensive poll released on 8 May (2014) by the Pew Research Centre surveyed opinions in Ukraine and Crimea on the subject of the unrest . . . 93% of westerners and 70% of easterners polled said that they wanted Ukraine to remain united. Despite international criticism of the 16 March referendum on Crimean status, 91% of those Crimeans polled thought that the vote was free and fair, and 88% said that the Ukrainian government should recognize the results.
    5. “In an opinion poll conducted from 14–26 March by the International Republican Institute, 26–27% of those polled in southern and eastern Ukraine viewed the Euromaidan protests as a coup d’état. Only 5% of respondents in eastern Ukraine felt that Russian-speakers were ‘definitely’ under pressure or threat. 43% of ethnic Russians (‘definitely’ or ‘rather’) supported the decision of the Russian Federation to send its military to protect Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine.”
    5. UKRAINIAN OPINIONS ARE SPLIT ON JOINING EU AND NATO, BUT ARE UNITED ON A UNITED COUNTRY. “69% of southerners and 53% of easterners supported Ukraine remaining as a unitary state; and only 2% of southerners and 4% of easterners supported separatism. 59% of those polled in eastern Ukraine would like to join the Russian-led customs union, while only 22% were in favor of joining the European Union. 37% of southerners would prefer to join this customs union, while 29% were in favor of joining the EU. 90% of those polled in the western Ukraine wanted to enter an economic union with EU, while only 4% favored the customs union led by Russia. Among all the Ukrainians polled overall, only ONLY 34% favor joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, while 44% are against joining it. In eastern Ukraine and southern Ukraine, only 14% and 11% of the respondents respectively favor joining NATO, while 67% in eastern Ukraine and 52% in southern Ukraine oppose joining it.”
    6. Even Ukrainians disagree!

    1. Yes, I see I mistakenly wrote Abkhazia was a Soviet Socialist “Republic” when I meant to write it was an “Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic”, but the point remains: As Kosovos fought for their freedom from Serbia, Abkahzians and South Ossetians fought and won their freedom from Georgia. They proclaim their independence and Russia recognizes it. When Kosovo first proclaimed its independence, recognition was slow in coming.

  11. We go in circles. You argue the Russians helped the Ossetians. I say the Russians helped the Ossetians after the Georgian army invaded South Ossetia. Some say the US helped the Kosovars after the Serb army invaded Kosovo. But Kosovo was a part of Serbia. You say South Ossetia was a part of Georgia. South Ossetians say they were Independent. We go in circles.

    1. Yes indeed – that is what Kremlinoids do – repeat and repeat and go in circles, repeating the same old lies over and over and over again.

      And make distinctions without a difference.

      According to Kremlinoids, everyone yearns to be united with Moozer Rasha.

      Even the Tatars in Crimea who have been targeted by the Kremlinoids.

      And the Kremlinoids even have “surveys” to “prove” their lies.

      You have been trained well.

    2. OK, sport, I’m going to provide you with just one example of many of what it was like under Yanukonvikt. Take a good look. Ms. Chornovil was just one of many journalists and non-journalists severely beaten or even killed by thugs who were referred to as “tushky”, after the last name of one of the thugs who was hired to beat people up.

      Yanukonvikt had Russian operatives in his so-called government. Invariably this is what Rashan-style “government” looks like:

      http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/journalist-and-protest-activist-chornovol-beaten-near-kyiv-334224.html

      Under these circumstances, with a thug lardbutt moron “president,” Ukrainians were supposed to wait for another election while they were beaten and killed by Yanukonvikt on orders from Putler?

      I don’t think so.

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