The Blue Whale in the Room No One Wants to See

I wrote the other day how the President of the United States in blaming the Texas Church Massacre on a deranged person does not want to see the Blue Whale  in the room. That is that even if the person was deranged or mentally ill, of which there is no history, the massacre could not have happened if we had common sense gun laws in the country.

No one who thinks like the president wants to accept that the conditions that existed in 1787 were totally different from they are  today. It seems to me that suggesting a blunderbuss in the hands of a citizen is the same as a machine gun is the height of naïveté or at a minimum a sign one is blind to society as it exists today. One would say a good SAT question would be a machine gun is to the blunderbuss, as a nuclear bomb is to a (a) cherry bomb; (b) hand grenade; (c) 3 sticks of TNT; or (4) land mine.

The gun decision (Heller) was written by Scalia who is no longer on the Court. He was replaced by Gorsuch. Even though he was appointed by Trump there was always hope he might have a different view on guns than Scalia. That hope was dashed last summer when he joined Justice Thomas in a  dissent from the Court’s refusal to bring the case of  Peruta v. California to it for a hearing. The issue was whether a person has a right to carry  firearms in public. The case was from California where the law  prohibits openly  carrying a firearm in public. Peruta sought a license to  carry a concealed firearm in public. The law provides he is able to do this if he shows “good  cause.

The sheriff to whom the application for a license was made interprets the phrase “good cause” to mean more than just a concern for one’s personal safety or one’s need for self-defense but  requires a particularized showing that his situation is different from that of the general public (mainstream) which causes him to be placed in harm’s way. In other words, without pointing to a particular need rather than the general desire to be able to defend oneself the license to carry will not issue

Justice Thomas suggested the scheme faced by Peruta was a denial of his right to bear arms as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment as interpreted by Heller. To me the case is interesting because it shows Gorsuch’s disposition as well as the Supreme Court’s when it comes to  guns. The former is  a true believer in Heller while the latter is ducking the issue. Why is that?

Thomas points out that even with great disagreement among the states and federal courts over the issue, and even though over the last 7 years the Court has not heard any 2nd Amendment cases. During that time it has heard 35 cases on the First and 25 cases on the Fourth Amendment.

Thomas suggests the Court looks at the 2nd Amendment as “a disfavored right” and notes “The Constitution does not rank certain rights above the other.”  He concludes his dissent stating: “For those of us who work in marbled halls,  guarded constantly by a vigilant and dedicated police force, the guarantee of the Second Amendment might seem antiquated and superfluous. But the Framers made a clear choice. They reserved to all Americans the right to bear arms for self-defense.  I do not think we should stand by idly while a State denies its citizens that right, particularly when their very lives may depend on it.”

I asked why that is that the Court is ducking dealing with the Second Amendment. I suggest it recognizes that its decision in Heller is  wrong. None of those justices who went along with Scalia other than Thomas want to admit this.  perhaps they are hoping that Congress will do something about the mess we have ourselves in with the present gun laws. That, of course, will never happen because of the erroneous belief that the National Rifle Association holds great power over the voters.

Nor can the Court look to the present president. He just signed a bill making it easier for mentally ill people to get  guns (and he attributes a massacre to mental illness). His son-in-law is pushing regulations to make silencers legal. So that cupboard is bare.

Why isn’t it simple for the Court to say there is no way the Framers of the Second Amendment could understand the advances in firearms and had they then they would have expected reasonable limits on their use. How would it intrude upon anyone’s Second Amendment rights if all magazines that carried more than six rounds were outlawed and that to replace a magazine with another would be difficult so that at least 10 seconds would pass before it could be accomplished. The hunters, target shooters, and self-defense types could all have their guns; the future victims would have time to escape or defend selves during the time rounds were being exchanged. Isn’t that a simple step forward given that the Hellers decision exists.

134 thoughts on “The Blue Whale in the Room No One Wants to See

  1. Matt: The Founding Father knew nothing of automobiles.No reason to limit the right to travel or the speed limit to that of a horse and buggy.

    Devin Kelley escaped from a mental hospital in 2012.

    Kelley was in the church for seven minutes. With 2 six-shot pistols, he still could get off hundreds of rounds. (In fact, Kelley fired over 400 rounds.)

    The Virginia Tech shooter killed 2, then went to Norris Hall and killed 31 and wounded 17. Seiung-Cho (sp?), the shooter, spent between 10 and 12 minutes in Norris Hall. He used two handguns and reloaded multiple times. Your proposed proscriptions would not have prevented a single death.

    The facts is during the American Revolution, a musket or flintlock pistol could be fired 3 times a minute. Two maniacs could terrorize a schoolhouse or town and kill dozens of people in 7 or 10 minutes. As the Beltway sniper killed, a Revolutionary War sniper too could kill innocent civilians. The Founding Fathers were aware guns were lethal.

    An armed citizenry prevents crime.

    The U.S. is a violent country; the murder rate without guns still exceeds that of most other countries. As does the drug overdose rate. Why? Liberty and a nation of mixed nationalities, cultures, etc? Who knows.

    We already have reasonable gun control Machine guns are banned. I’ve proposed some additional reasonable measures, but not feel-good draconian measures which would do little good.

    We are not England and we don’t want to be. We want to protect each individual’s right to bear arms, and keep arms from felons and mentally ill.

    Reasonable regulations, not Draconian!

  2. Americans have a right to feel secure in their homes and on their properties. Owning guns ensure that right. You won’t feel secure if you have a six-shooter and the bad guys come into your house or home with 9mms with 16 round cartridges.
    Limit magazines to six rounds, and only the bad-guys will have 16 round magazines.

    The Constitution secures our liberties, among which is the freedom to protect ourselves against bad-guys, maniacs and an overly intrusive, threatening government.

    The abundance of guns in America checks both criminals, our government and foreign governments. As Lincoln said, “Not in a trial of a thousand years will a foreign power trek on the Blue Ridge or drink from the Ohio.” Words to that effect.

    Think! Tens of millions of Americans use guns lawfully. How do we stop a few maniacs with guns, trucks, bombs? By disarming peaceful citizens?

  3. UGH!

    In other news about 5 hour erections…..

    After Night of Drinking, F.B.I. Supervisor Wakes to Find a Prostitute Stole His Gun
    November 19,2017

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/us/politics/fbi-stolen-gun-stolen-charlotte.html?_r=0

    see link for full story

    WASHINGTON — An F.B.I. counterterrorism supervisor is under internal investigation after a woman stole his gun following a night of heavy drinking in a North Carolina hotel, according to documents and government officials.

    In July, Robert Manson, a unit chief in the F.B.I.’s international terrorism section, had his Glock .40-caliber handgun, a $6,000 Rolex watch and $60 in cash stolen from his room at the Westin hotel in Charlotte, N.C., according to a police report.

    Read the Police Report on an F.B.I. Supervisor’s Stolen Gun
    Robert Manson, an F.B.I. counterterrorism supervisor, reported stolen property, including a gun, in July in Charlotte, N.C. The police report, which denotes that Mr. Manson was incapacitated by alcohol, states that his gun, Rolex watch, and cash were stolen from his room at the Westin Hotel.

    Nov. 9, 2017
    The episode is an embarrassing mishap for the F.B.I. As a unit chief assigned to the bureau’s headquarters, Mr. Manson oversees all terrorism investigations in the Midwest and the Carolinas. An F.B.I. spokesman, Michael P. Kortan, said the incident was the subject of an internal investigation and declined to give additional comment.

    Mr. Manson and other senior agents were in Charlotte for training, according to a law enforcement official familiar with the episode. The agents later told the police that they had been drinking with women who said they were exotic dancers, according to a second person who was briefed on the investigation but, like the first, was not authorized to discuss it publicly.

    “Investigators determined that the victim, Robert Manson, met a woman in the hotel bar the prior night and took her back to his hotel room,” Robert Tufano, a spokesman for the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department, said in a statement.

    At 6:30 the next morning, police officers for the department were called to the hotel. Mr. Manson was incapacitated because of alcohol, according to the police report, which he did not file himself. A fellow agent, Kevin Thuman, gave the report, which says the theft happened from 2 a.m. to 5 a.m. The hotel bar closes at 2 a.m.

    The gun was identified in the police report as a Glock 27, a compact model that is easy to conceal. Federal law allows agents to carry concealed weapons while off duty, but not while they are intoxicated. It is unclear where Mr. Manson kept the gun. F.B.I. rules prohibit agents from leaving their guns in unsecure places. Every room in the Westin is equipped with a safe.

    One F.B.I. agent was cited in an internal review this year after a family member accidentally shot him. Last year, an assistant special agent in charge was charged with drunken driving, and an internal review found that he had improperly carried his gun while intoxicated.

    1. Interesting that an FBI employee has the wherewithal to buy a $6,000 watch. Could be just personal quirk. Could be an indication that the FBI does not need salary increases. Being a sensitive national security position perhaps his personal finances should be give a Paul Manafort style review.

  4. Matt:

    The issues are complex. Regulations could be strengthened. The Gun-Show loophole could be eliminated. In other words, strict back-ground checks at gun shows. Plus ban the bump stocks. Concentrate on the psychos and felons, then leave the rest of the American people alone.

    1. A little discussion of Murder, Suicide and Guns:

    New York Times presented some detailed data on guns. The data, in fact, disproved the Times’ hypothesis. In France, with half the guns as US (47 guns per 100 people) the gun-murder rate is less than 10% of the US. In Italy, where there are 11 guns per 100 people (compare to US 90g/100) the gun-murder rate is almost double the US.

    The Times Chart, of course, doesn’t show Jamaica, Haiti, other Caribbean, Central-American, South-American, Central-African and Eastern European countries, where the gun possession rate is oftentimes 10% of the US rate and the gun-murder rate is oftentimes 10x the US rate.

    (Comparing guns/capita and murders/capita, there is in fact an inverse relationship in a majority of countries (although not statistically significant.) There is no relationship between gun availability and the gun-murder rate and especially no relationship between gun availability and the homicide rate. (Citation to follow.)

    Here’s where there is a direct relationship: Suicide rates and guns per capita rates. In countries with fewest guns in citizens hands, the highest suicide rates are recorded. Japan, South Korea. I did a study of the top 30 countries in suicide rates (averaging about 20 suicides per 100,000. (from 15 to 35 suicides per 100,00.) The average gun possession rate in those countries was 7 guns per 100,000 people.

    Top 30 suicide rates include Sri Lanka # 1 (35 suicides/100k); Mongolia #3 (28s/100k); Lithuania #8 (25s/100k); South Korea #10 (24s); Poland #15 (20s); Belgium #23 (16s); Hungary #25 (16s); and Japan #26 (15s). . . . . The US is @ # 50 out of 200 countries with 12 suicides per 100,000.

    Further research indicates that some countries with very high murder rates, like Jamaica and Honduras, have very low suicide rates.

    Japanese-Americans and Korean-Americans have suicide rates comparable to the American average rate, and less than the rate in their home countries.

    Murder is not a major US problem compared with the rest of the world. Murder is a major problem in about 2% of U.S. geographical areas, among small subsets of Americans (some inner city black (4x national rate) and Latino (2X national rate) communities.) Blacks are 13% of population and commit about 50% of murders. Hard facts but true. Blacks’ and Latinos’ suicide rates are one-third of Whites. (Blacks and Latinos commit suicide at about 6/100,000; Whites at about 19/100,00.)(One study!)

    In US, if you deduct the high homicides rate among African-Americans and Latino-Americans, you find the homicide rate among European-Americans is comparable to the combined rate of Western and Eastern Europeans. Things get fuzzy when you consider that @ 25% of African American genes are European and over 50% of Latino-American genes are European. Things get fuzzier when liberals try to compare the great hetorogeneous melting pot of the United States with homogenized European countries.

    I won’t bore you with detailed data: But on Wikipedia, you’ll see for yourself the homicide rates, suicide rates, gun homicide rates, gun suicide rates, gun possession rates per capita, etc, etc. The US leads in gun suicides, but our overall suicide rate is the same as France, and lower than Sweden, Belgium, Hungary, Poland, S.Korea, Finland and 40 other countries.

    Let the American people keep their guns. Live free or die!

    Let Poland be Poland!

    To repeat, the highest suicide rates are in countries where the citizens have no access to guns (Japan, South Korea, Lithuania, Poland); guns may confer a sense of security; lack of guns may instill a sense of powerlessness, helplessness and fears that increase the suicide rate. Who knows?

    A complex area meriting more study, more light and less heat. Let’s not be too quick on the draw!

    Since Cain slew Abel, we’ve wondered why!

  5. ugh ugh!

    in other newsys…..

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/42454-we-ve-got-to-break-this-mindset-that-policing-is-the-only-tool

    We’ve Got to Break This Mindset That Policing Is the Only Tool
    Saturday, November 04, 2017
    By Janine Jackson, FAIR | Interview

    Janine Jackson: The litany of instances of police violence and misconduct is both infuriating and almost numbing. Our guest’s new book suggests we reconsider our understanding of policing, see it less as a tool that has on some occasions been used for abuse, and more as a tool for abuse, a system that does considerable harm even when functioning as designed. That reflects more closely the history of the institution in this country, and it’s really only seeing things that radically — going to the root — that lets us see a way out, not a way back to some imagined time in which there was harmony between police and community everywhere, but forward to a time in which policies of punishment don’t distort so many societal functions, and consign huge numbers of especially black and brown people to the margins.

    The book is called The End of Policing; author Alex Vitale is professor of sociology and coordinator of the Policing and Social Justice Project at Brooklyn College. He joins us now by phone. Welcome back to CounterSpin, Alex Vitale.

    Alex Vitale: Thank you.

    People are offended, I think morally, when you suggest that the inequity of the impact of policing is not a bug but a feature. I think we tend to think of it as an institution made in a lab, you know: We need protection from criminals, so let’s create “law enforcement.” I wonder if you would tell us a little bit of the actual history of US policing that shapes the role that we see it playing today.

    Sure. There’s kind of a standard liberal narrative, academic narrative, historical narrative, about the police, that begins with the London Metropolitan Police formed in 1829. And the idea behind it, that’s propagated behind it, is that it was an improvement over the kind of semi-professional watch, that was made up of volunteers and others pressed into service that would walk around at night, on the one hand, and the use of the militia to put down riots and disorder on the other hand. And the feeling was that this would be a civilian force under the control of local authorities, and would engage in a kind of neutral enforcement of the law.

    But the reality is, is that the model for the London Metropolitan Police actually is directly tied to the British occupation of Ireland. And the person who creates the London police, Robert Peel — Robert, Bob, the Bobbies — had been in charge of the British occupation of Ireland, and it was there that he begins to develop the idea of a civilian force that could be used to put down rural uprisings more efficiently than relying on the British army, which had been tied up in the Napoleonic Wars, was overstretched and highly indebted. So he creates the Irish Peace Preservation Force, which is located in local communities, which allows for better surveillance and preemptive action to put down social unrest.

    London, during this period, is awash in this newly industrializing working class, that’s come from rural areas, and the job of the police was to micromanage the lives of this new industrial urban workforce, in a way that tried to mold them into a reliable workforce. So there were all kinds of little minor nuisance laws that were enforced, as well as proscriptions on, you know, drunk and disorderly behavior, etc., that had the purpose of getting people to go home to their families, get up in the morning and go to work and be productive, and to try to stamp out lifestyles that weren’t tied to a standard industrial work life. At the same time, they put down riots, they put down labor movements, they attacked strikers, etc.

    And we can see this in the US context as well, with the creation of forces to drive Native American populations out, to drive out Mexicans from what was becoming Texas at the time, to stamp out workers movements, to shoot miners in Pennsylvania, etc. And so the book basically argues that the origins of policing should be understood as intimately tied to three major forms of accumulation during the 19th century, and these are slavery, colonialism and the new industrial workforce.

    So it’s always been a kind of social engineering, if you will. The definition of crime itself has been very much shaped by the social control impetus of the enterprise of policing.

    It was a new way of constructing state power that was more fine-tuned than relying on the army and the militia. It was able to produce legitimacy for the state in a way that the army was not; it relied on brute power. And so this was much more efficient for the state, and the state immediately began on this kind of mythmaking, of saying that, well, of course we understand the state is legitimate, because these are liberal democracies of some form, and therefore any expression of state power is legitimate. But all of that discourse completely hides slavery, completely hides the suppression of workers movements, and so the actual tasks of this seemingly legitimate state are in fact designed to reproduce race and class inequalities, and the police are just a softer touch in carrying out that mission.

    You can certainly see a worldview at work that is fomented, I think, by media, in which you want police to have all of the weapons, and you want them to have freedom to do anything at all, because there are good and bad people in the world, and cops protect the good from the bad. When major percentages of people are going to prison for nonviolent drug offenses, for example, this idea that there are different sorts of people, bad criminals who do harm and good noncriminals, you have to challenge that.

    This is the problem with all this “thin blue line” and “war on cops” discourse that’s out there, is that it assumes that the world is divided up between good people and bad people, and that the only way to produce safety, to protect the good from the bad, is through coercive state power: the threat of arrest, the use of violence.

    And of course, when we look at middle-class, leafy suburban communities, they don’t need police to manage their social problems. They have mechanisms and resources to regulate those things themselves, and, of course, they’re beneficiaries, in large part, from the basic political and economic arrangements. And so no one feels like, oh, of course they need heavy-handed policing in those communities. It’s poor people who are perceived to be only responsive to this kind of coercive power.

  6. I’d like to take a second here to say thank you to all on here that have served in our military. I hope you have and are having a fine Veterans Day and hope you know that many of us truly appreciate the job you have done or are doing.

  7. Chief Justice Roger B. Taney in the 1857 Dred Scott v Sandford 7-2 majority decision wrote what many considered “common sense” at the time:

    “[Entitlement to the privileges and immunities of citizens] would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized [sic] as citizens in any one State of the Union, the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, singly or in companies, without pass or passport, and without obstruction, to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased at every hour of the day or night without molestation, unless they committed some violation of law for which a white man would be punished; and it would give them the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went. And all of this would be done in the face of the subject race of the same color, both free and slaves, and inevitably producing discontent and insubordination among them, and endangering the peace and safety of the State.”

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/60/393

    I would like that the privileges and immunities of United States citizenship to still apply to all citizens and to me. That, to me, is “common sense”. In the meantime, we must remember 42 U.S.C. §1983:

    “Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress ….”

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983

    Most, if not all, “common sense” gun control legislation is blatantly unconstitutional. It is unfortunate that so many Supreme Court Justices would disagree with that assertion.

  8. THE EXCULPATION OF JUDGE ROY MOORE: (I feel free to be like Msfree)

    Before burning Judge Moore at the stake or crucifying him, think of these other cases and other facts. Remember, the Salem Witch Trials when a half-dozen young girls lied or confabulated to accuse dozens of innocents of witchcraft. Remember Tawana Brawley and the Duke Lacrosse Case. But remember, too, why we have statutes of limitations. People’s memories change over time. Facts from disparate events are blended into one imagined memory. A psychiatric process called CONFABULATION often occurs.
    Before considering anything, notice the writings on that yearbook are forged! Check it out on the Internet. (1) Two different inks used. (2) The numbers 77 are written by two different hands. (3) Beverley Nelson’s own stepson has gone on twitter video and said he doesn’t believe her. (4) Did Gadsden’s Olde Hickory House restaurant serve alcohol; if so she had be 18 to work there as a “waitress”. (5) So offended by the assault, she kept his inscription for 40 years. (6) The first “1977” is slanted up; all other writing slanted down. (7) She left her yearbook on the counter beside where he always sat; she wrote, ”He sat at the counter in the same seat night after night. I remember exactly where he sat.” (8) He signed a page about three pages inside the yearbook. Did he think she was 18 and a high school grad? (9) He wrote “To”; he didn’t write “To Beverly”; (10) His discursive ts have straight crosses in the yearbook; in other examples, his ts have slight curves and are slanted up. CONCLUSION: Too many questions!!!!
    PLUS TODAY WE LEARN BEVERLY NELSON LIKELY LIFTED THE SIGNATURE ROY MOORE D. A., FROM HER DIVORCE DECREE, WHICH WAS STAMPED ROY MOORE / D .A. AND THE “D.A.” WAS HIS CLERK DEBORAH ADAMS (SP?)
    ON AGE DIFFERENCES:
    Remember Ireland in 19th and early 20th century where average age of men marrying was early 30s and women 18. (Man had to wait to inherit farm, before he could marry.)
    Now consider this from the INTERNET “I appreciate your opinion. However, my mother was married at 18, and had me at 19 – her husband – my dad- was 15 years older than her – and he started to court when she was very late 17. My grandfather has the same story with my grandmother. I admit I’m from the south – South Philly. I don’t see how anyone can project their 2017 tastes back on 1977 – you wind up stereotyping too many good fathers and husbands. Please reconsider this part of your opinion.”
    NOW HEAR THIS!
    JUDGE ROY MOORE: Beverley Nelson did not tell anyone for two years when she says she told her younger sister. (Told her what?) She told her husband 13 years ago (25 YEARS AFTER THE FACT), and mother 4 years ago (35 YEARS AFTER THE FACT.) She kept the yearbook and inscription of the man she alleges assaulted her. Wouldn’t she have erased the inscription? Thrown out the yearbook? Torn out the page? (It was only the third page in, a photo of an old building/factory.) She says she left the restaurant with Moore at 10:00 P.M., figuring she could call her boyfriend later, telling him not to pick her up, for she was getting a ride home with Moore. It was “a cold” night. She knew the boyfriend was on his way. Even if it were a 5 minute ride to her house, the boyfriend would already have left his house. She’d have left her boyfriend stranded. In fact, the boyfriend had already arrived by the time she left Moore’s car. How often did her boyfriend pick her up? How often did she get a ride home from someone else? Something’s fishy about her story? She didn’t tell her boyfriend because he had a “violent temper.” Guess he would NOT have been mad if she’d taken a ride home with someone else and left him waiting for no one?
    Here’s what else is fishy: She says he parked between the dumpster and back of the restaurant. When is trash taken to the dumpster? At the close of business! He parked where someone was likely to turn on the lights, walk out and empty the trash?
    Here’s what else is fishy: She says Moore “tried to take off my shirt.” In late December, early January (1 to 2 weeks after December 22) the average nighttime temperature in Gadsden Alabama plummets to the thirties. (In fact the “average” low is 31 degrees F on January 1, 1978.) She said it was “a cold night.” She said “I went outside to wait.” It’s 10 P.M. “My boyfriend was late”; Certainly she was wearing more than “a shirt”. Likely a heavy sweater or heavy jacket! How do you pull a shirt off over a sweater or jacket?
    Here’s what else is fishy: She says she worked at restaurant when she was 16. Most restaurants serve alcohol. Gadsden legalized the sale of alcohol at restaurants in 1972, I’ve read. She describes herself as a waitress. She’d have to be 18 to serve alcohol. Did she pass herself off as 18 to everyone? Is that why she brought a yearbook to the restaurant? To convince some she’d graduated?
    CONFABULATION:
    Let’s consider the “charges” against Judge Moore. Only two would be “illegal” if true. (I’m excluding the 28 year old who said he grabbed her fanny one time in 1991).
    Here’s how one person responded on the Internet: “In three instances he asked permission from the parents to take their daughter on a date and all three were above the age of consent. (One parent said no, and he went out with two.) He was a perfect gentleman that did everything above-board.” In the fourth instance, the only complaint is he kissed her “forcefully” at the end of the night.
    But in two other instances he allegedly broke character: in one, he snuck behind the mother’s back, drove out to nowhere (his house) and fondled the 14 year old; in the other, with the 16 year old, he groped her in the car behind the restaurant, held her neck, pushed her head toward his crotch. She resisted. He let go.
    The fact that he dated three teenagers (17 and 18) when he was in his early 30s isn’t proof, or even evidence, that he’s a child molester. The accusations of fondling (he touched my breast, grabbed my breast, tried to lift up my shirt) are more serious, if believed, but not capital offenses.
    Is the 14 year old’s story true? Who knows? It is 40 years old. Does she misremember? Did he act the perfect gentleman and she misremembered, imagined or fabricated certain facts? She admits as a teenager that her parents were separated, going through a tough divorce, she abused drugs, alcohol and was promiscuous. She’s stated everyone in town knew she was wayward, wild, troubled, not a saint. So who knows what really happened 40 years ago? She admits trying to commit suicide at 16, after a period of drug abuse, alcohol abuse and “boyfriends.” As an adult, she had three divorces and filed for bankruptcy three times. A troubled youth, a troubled adulthood!
    The 16 year old waitress changed high schools? Why. The schools are only five miles apart. She had a boyfriend. What was her past? We don’t know yet, except she says she competed in beauty contests and had a full figure. When she showed the judge the high school year book, did the judge assume she’d graduated and was over 18? Who knows? We know she in 1999 Judge Moore presided over her divorce case. Was she bitter at the outcome? Who knows?
    WHO ELSE DATED YOUNG WOMEN? Some facts:
    Pablo Picasso was 45 when he began a long term relationship with his 17 year old French mistress, Marie-Therese Walter
    “Princess Diana had just turned 20 when she married the 32-year-old Prince Charles. Not everyone sees this kind of age difference as a scandal.”
    Gary Newsome: “Over a decade ago, San Francisco politician Gavin Newsome dated a 17 year old while he was 38. Nothing was said. He bought her drinks at 19, and nothing was said (California’s legal drinking age is 21 year)
    Jerry Seinfeld, 38, dated a 17 year old, Soshanna Lonstein (“It wasn’t a date, I just took her to a restaurant.”) and then courted her for four straight years. “They dated for four years”. She moved from New York to LA to be with him.
    Elvis born in January 1935. His future wife Priscilla Beulieu was born in May 1945. Elvis, drafted into the army in March 1958, was stationed in Friedburg, Germany in October 1958, and in September 1959, met 14 year old Priscilla there, and began dating her (he’s 24 she’s 14.) Her parents approved. They continuously dated for 7.5 years and then were married.
    Let’s agree, too, that there are some mature and precocious teenagers. Let’s agree that there are some wild, precocious, promiscuous teenagers. Let’s agree that some young people exaggerate. And let’s face the facts: some girls can pass for young women at 16 or 17.
    Five girls posed in Playboy at 17; one at 16. In 1975, in 18 states you could be a Playboy Bunny at 18, in 11 other states at 19.
    In 1975, to work as a Playboy Bunny you had to serve liquor (be of drinking age.) In 1975 the legal drinking age throughout the South, in all New England, New York, New Jersey and most of Northeast (Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, Pennsylvania) was 18 (Eighteen). Thirteen states had a minimum age 18 and 5 others at 18 you could drink (or serve) beer only. Only 11 states had a minimum age above 19. (20 or 21) That means many 18 year olds were Playboy Playmates and many dated older men. Some no doubt were 17. (using phony IDs.) Throughout the 1970s bars, clubs, lounges were crowded with 18 and 17 year olds who were courted by men in their late twenties and early thirties and older. So what?
    Now here comes Judge Roy Moore who harmlessly dated an 18 and 17 year old. Did nothing but kiss them. Acted a perfect gentlemen. So what! Before throwing stones, ask yourself again: “What if the 14 and 16 year old lied, exaggerated, misremembered, confabulated? Only two saying he did something wrong – – -touched, groped. The others describe a perfect gentleman. One describes herself as a teenage drinker, druggie, sexually promiscuous, from a broken home, parents going through a divorce, at times suicidal. What if she exaggerated?
    But even if true, it was 40 years ago, and the improper conduct stopped . . . went no further then alleged fondling or groping. He took one home. Never saw her again. The other got out of his car and into her boyfriend’s car. For these bad acts, we condemn a man for life? Disqualify him for office. Forty-year old allegations? He gets the Scarlet Letter for life? He gets burned at the stake?
    The world is more forgiving of Roman Polanski who admitted drugging and raping a 14 year old. In Europe and the US, they still give Polanski awards for his movies.
    3. The statutory age to marry in most states is 18. With parental consent, it’s 16.
    How many young women, age 17 or 18, have married men in their early thirties? How many young women have gone to dinner with older men?
    Find statistics and you’ll find it’s not uncommon.
    An example:
    “Courtney Alexis Stodden (born August 29, 1994) is an American reality show contestant, actress, model, recording artist and a national spokesperson for PETA, the animal rights activist organization.
    After competing in beauty pageants in her home state of Washington, then 16-year-old Stodden came to international attention when she married then 50-year-old actor Doug Hutchison in 2011.”
    In 2007, The CDC reports that 48% of high school students have had sexual intercourse. Some young people are sexually promiscuous, and one of Judge Moore’s accusers admits that she was!
    4. CONFABULATION (See footnote #1): Is she confabulating events from her messed-up young life? Her checkered teenage years are compounded by the fact that she subsequently had three divorces. Hardly a pillar of the community! Hardly, what we’d call, a stable personality! Hardly a reliable witness!
    Also remember, she allegedly went “out” with him “twice”; yet told her girlfriends she was “dating” him. Told her girlfriends around the same time or later? How much later? Exaggerated to girlfriends? Was the fabricated tale braggingly told to contemporaries and did it become “the truth” in her own mind?
    FALSE ACCUSATIONS: Again, remember those who were falsely accused. The Duke Lacrosse Players, for example. Remember 15 year old Tawana Brawley’s lies, . . . the cases are endless.

  9. PART II: THE EXCULPATION & EXONERATION OF JUDGE MOORE:

    5. A. LITERATURE AND MOVIES:
    (a) Remember books and movies about the falsely accused, e.g. “To Kill a Mockingbird!”
    (b) Remember the movie “Blame it on Rio”: a 40 year old man infatuated with a 17 year old girl (a comedy; the relationship is consummated; she’s the initiator)
    (c) Remember the movie “American Beauty” 42 year old infatuated with 16 year old (no relationship; at the very end, he suddenly recognizes her innocence and stops his advances.)
    (d) Remember Gone with the Wind? Rhett Butler was 32 when he first met 17 year old Scarlet O’Hara, and was infatuated with her from the beginning!
    (e) Remember Nabokov’s “Lolita”, a story of pederasty, a lengthy predatory relationship. Judge Moore’s accusers may have been precocious and Lolita-like, or innocents, but Judge Moore did not consummate anything with them.
    (f) Remember Taxi Driver where 12 year old Jodie Foster played a 13 year old prostitute? There are prostitutes who are that young, and in real life there are promiscuous, wild, crazy girls that are young, too. No one alleges Judge Moore had sexual intercourse with anyone under 18, as far we know. He allegedly groped a 14 and 16 year old, 40 years ago.

    To re-emphasize: remember that Judge Roy Moore did not try to consummate anything with any young woman, of legal age or not. He kissed an 18 and 17 year old. For this he gets burned at the stake? For a forty-year old accusation he gets crucified?
    In “To Kill a Mockingbird”, a young country woman falsely accuses a black man who rejects her. We all know the story. She repeatedly swore to “the truth”. In the book/movie, the jury believed her. The readers, the audience and Gregory Peck know she lied. He didn’t rape her. He did kiss her; rather she kissed and hugged him, and he rejected her. Is that what happened to Judge Moore?

    5. B. CONFABULATION: (In psychiatry, confabulation (verb: confabulate) is a disturbance of memory, defined as the production of fabricated, distorted, or misinterpreted memories about oneself or the world, without the conscious intention to deceive.)
    The mind can play tricks on people, especially impressionable young women, and the Press can manipulate young minds (Review the Tawana Brawley case: 15 year old Tawana accused 4 to 6 white men of raping her. The Press reported all of it as true. It was a flat out fabrication! No forensic evidence supported any of her allegations! Forensic evidence refuted it. Multiple witnesses proved she fabricated the entire story.)
    With Judge Moore, the accuser says she told her mother “10 years after the fact”; the accuser says she told two teenage friends about it. About what? “Dating an older man?” What if she had heard Judge Moore was dating an 18 year old and she imagined or wished it were she? Did she falsely “brag” to her young friends? Do teenagers make up stories? The other accuser says she told her younger sister two years after the fact, her husband 27 years after the fact and her mother 36 years after the fact. Her story is too flimsy, too thin to force a man to walk a plank on it.

    I declare Judge Moore “Not guilty!” I say you can’t figuratively lynch someone and destroy his career based on 40 year old stories of fondling, groping. I say these accusers today are CONFABULATING!!!

    5 C: PUNISHMENT:

    Even if Judge Moore were guilty of two instances of groping (sexual assault, sexual touching) forty years ago, what should his punishment?

    (1) THE BOB MENENDEZ CASE: Several 16 year-old Domincan girls (prostitutes) have accused Congressman Bob Menendez of having sex with them. Two have written letters to that effect. Although Obama’s Justice Department was not able to “prove” the charges, it did find incriminating, circumstantial and “corroborating” evidence, including a Pilot’s testimony that Menendez flew on private jets with “young girls” heading to parties in the Domincan Republic. “Presented with specific, corroborated allegations that defendants Menendez and Melgen had sex with underage prostitutes in the Dominican Republic, the Government responsibly and dutifully investigated those serious allegations. The indictment here, of course, charges only corruption and does not include any allegations of soliciting underage prostitution.” (Menendez lied to FBI telling them he only took 3 flights on Dr. Melgen’s private jet. One of Melgen’s pilots testified he took at least 16 flights.)
    Should we believe those girls, too, and should Bob Menendez be kicked out of Congress based on allegations?
    (“Prostitution is legal in the Dominican Republic for anyone over the age of 18, and the U.S. cannot prosecute anyone on sex tourism charges unless it can be proven that the prostitute solicited was underage and that the hypothetical perpetrator traveled with the intention of having sex with minors.”)

    Judge Moore did not have sex with minors; no one alleges he had sexual intercourse; at most, two minors allege he groped them; 40 years ago; has that been proven?
    (2) & (3) CONGRESSMEN STUDDS AND CRANE: “In 1983, Rep. Gerry Studds, 46, D-Mass., acknowledged Thursday he had a homosexual relationship with a 17-year-old page in 1973 (Studds was 36) and made sexual advances to two other pages (Studds was 40) as reported by the House ethics committee. Rep. Daniel Crane, 47, R-Ill., admitted having sex with a 17-year-old female page in 1980 (Crane was 44). . . .
    “The Committee on Standards of Official Conduct voted 11-1 in a private session to recommend reprimands and adopt the report of special counsel Joseph Califano, who has spent a year investigating charges of sexual misconduct on Capitol Hill. “House Speaker Thomas O’Neill said the report was disturbing but took comfort in the committee’s finding that sexual misconduct was not widespread (in Congress).” Disturbing to O’Neill, but no big deal!

    Both Crane and Studds admitted to multiple acts of sexual intercourse with these 17 year olds, who were decades younger. Both were subsequently censured. Neither was expelled from Congress nor prohibited from running for election. And these were employees (Congressional pages) they were having sexual intercourse with. Crane lost his re-election bid in 1984. Studds was re-elected about 10 times in Massachusetts and served until 1997.”

    No one accuses Roy Moore of having sexual intercourse with a minor, nor a sixteen year old, nor a seventeen year old. He stands accused of “groping” a 16 year old and 14 year old. One time, each! Twice in his life! Unlike Studds and Crane, he denies the charges. Unlike the contemporary complaints against Studds and Crane, the complaints against Moore are 40 years old. For 40 year old charges of groping (grabbing breasts, trying to pull up a shirt; touching a bra and panties), they want to crucify Judge Moore.

  10. PART III: THE EXCULPATION, EXONERATION AND EXORCISM OF JUDGE ROY MOORE:

    I believe through the power of the Holy Spirit Judge Roy Moore, a West Point graduate, Vietnam Veteran, faithful husband, father and grandfather of 35 years has been restored in Christ’s name and his spirit was and is made free of any hold the vicious media, stone throwers, or other powers of evil have had or ever will have on him. He has stood tall. In the face of all the calumnies and falsehoods, he still stands tall, a humble servant of the Lord. He is vindicated!

    FOOTNOTES: Arguendo ad infinitum:
    NOTES:
    1: CONFABULATION: In psychiatry, confabulation (verb: confabulate) is a disturbance of memory, defined as the production of fabricated, distorted, or misinterpreted memories about oneself or the world, without the conscious intention to deceive.
    2. The Washington Post reported the 14 year old received calls from Roy Moore “in her bedroom.” Her mother told another newspaper, (Breitbart, the Washington Times), that she did not have a bedroom phone.
    3. She can’t remember whether she was served alcohol on her first or second visit to Moore’s house. But from this we can infer, her memory is that she was not served alcohol twice. And from this we can infer her memory is foggy. Of course it is: She was 14; it’s 40 years ago; she’s confused, very likely confabulating! Did Judge Moore go to the bathroom, come out fully dressed, and she herself took off her own blouse and pants? Did he tell her to get dressed and drive her home? Did she concoct a story of seduction where there was none?
    4. Again, Beverly Nelson’s story has many holes. A “cold” winter night in Gadsden, temperatures average around 35 degrees F. She steps outside to wait for her boyfriend. She’s likely wearing a heavy coat or heavy sweater. She says she enters Moore’s cold car and seconds later he is pulling up her “shirt”? What happened to the heavy coat/sweater? Her boyfriend picks her up at @ 10:00 P.M.? She couldn’t wait a minute or two? How often did he fail to show? Never? Why park near a dumpster: that’s exactly where, after closing, employees empty trash? She says lights in back were off. Of course, they turn lights on when they go out back to empty trash. Her boyfriend pulls up after she walks from the back of restaurant? Notices nothing? Says nothing? Sometimes, apparently, she waits awhile for her boyfriend; knowing that she surely had a heavy coat on standing outside. B. The discrepancy in the signatures, especially the different number sevens; the two inks; the printed “e”s don’t match Moore’s on other samples. He doesn’t write “To Beverly”; the 1977 is slanted up; etc. C. Her own stepson doesn’t believe her!!!
    5. Quotes: “There have been at least seven Playboy Playmates of the Month who were under 18 years of age. Almost all appeared before 1967”. In 1964, at the age of 18, Donna Michelle became the youngest Playmate of the Year ever. “Susan Bernard said she was not quite 18 years old when she posed naked in front of a Christmas tree in 1966.” Barbi Benton began working at Playboy at age 18. Hefner fell in love at first sight and asked her for a date: “Upon being asked, she reportedly demurred to the then-42-year-old Hefner: ‘I don’t know, I’ve never dated anyone over 24 before.” To which Hefner replied, “That’s all right, neither have I.’” I have previously listed the stars who dated 17 year olds: Elvis, PIcasso, Springer, Newsome, etc.
    6. Here’s what I posted on Twitchy: (11-15-2017)
    Two young women said they dated him and he acted the perfect gentleman. A third said she dated him and he ended the night with a “forceful” kiss. That’s it! A mother said he asked her if he could date her teenage daughter and she said no. Another said he asked her out and she said no. That’s four (5) young women who said he did nothing wrong (unless you think asking is wrong). The reason he flatly denies the remaining two are because they’re the ones accusing him of groping (sexual assault.) And they’re the @40 year old stories. (from dubious sources); one admits drugs, alcohol, sex, broken family marred her early troubled teen years and subsequently had three divorce; the other her stepson disbelieves, she’s presented a forged yearbook “Ray Moore D. A.”, said she never contacted Moore again in her life (Moore was judge in her divorce) etc, etc. (35 degrees she’s standing outside in her “shirt” mentions no heavy jacket or sweater; she says Moore parks his car between the dumpster and restaurant, the one place most likely someone will dump the trash at the end of the night, etc, etc; just as she flees Moore’s car, her boyfriend’s car appears, she gets in and tells him nothing.)
    Today’s accuser Tina Johnson says in 1991 when she was 28 he grabbed her buttocks (once.) She didn’t tell anyone. Like other accusers, credibility is an issue. (Drugs, alcohol use, forging checks) a checkered past, a forged signature raises questions. Questions! Reasonable doubts about 40 year old and 25 year old stories!
    There’s reasons why we have statutes of limitations.
    Look up the psychiatric term: Confabulation!
    Folks mix memories: misremember events!
    Older men who dated 17 year olds: Elvis Presley, Pablo Picasso, Jerry Springer, Gary Newsome, etc, etc. At least three 17 year olds and one 16 year old were centerfolds in Playboy.
    In 1975, in 13 or more states, 18 year olds could drink and work as waitresses in bars and restaurants. Only 11 states had a drinking age over 19 (20 or 21).
    Lots of young women dated men in their early thirties.
    Who’s kidding whom?

    1. When someone has to write up the details of a rare bird, I throw out the sighting if all they do is compare their bird to other species to confirm it.

      Back in the day…..the guy liked younger females. Now we deal with it.

    2. “Older men who dated 17 year olds: Elvis Presley, Pablo Picasso, Jerry Springer, Gary Newsome, etc, etc.”

      Jerry Lee Lewis beat them by four years. And he married the child!

  11. This is a rare bird tossed and buffeted in the vicious winds of the Democrats’ ” Pervert Storm . ” One should not attempt to defend the indefensible . Judge Roy Moore may be a libertine and a reprobate ; a man with a big hat , a Bible , a gun , the Ten Commandments outdoor pool pledging, and an inflatable teen cheerleader doll . Or , He may not be . Fusion GPS and the Oppo Research hatchet Job Hillary and Podesta and Crew did on Donald Trump , making themselves the shameless perpetrators of a dirty and disgusting hoax to take him out , should be sufficient proof that, contrary to popular perception, Perception is not Reality ! This is why we call it Point Of View. The featherheads want to lynch the guy in hearsay. As Michelle Obama would say : We’re Better Than That !

    1. It is hard to believe that none of the accusers kept diaries. Almost all the women I know kept teen diaries. A little book with an easily picked lock on a strap that closed the cover tightly. Every time a heart would go over the standard 70 beats per minute another entry was sure to be cataloged. An encounter with a grown man? Sure to make the evening’s entry. My sister still has hers going back to junior high. They are not the kind of books that people throw away.

  12. ugh ugh ugh!

    in other grope newsies

    Radio host accuses Sen. Al Franken of kissing, groping her during 2006 USO tour
    BY TERENCE CULLEN DENIS SLATTERY
    NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Updated: Thursday, November 16, 2017, 11:12 AM

    1. Ugh, ugh, ugh, you say?

      A British gentleman comes home and finds his wife in bed with three men. ”What’s this!!!!” he yells. “Hello, hello, hello!!!!!!”

      His wife says, “Aren’t you going to say hello to me, dear?”

  13. Sharon Simone lives in Belmont Mass

    https://ordinaryevil.wordpress.com/2015/09/10/four-sisters-who-confronted-their-father-and-their-pain/

    Four Sisters Who Confronted Their Father and Their Pain
    Posted on September 10, 2015

    My father, was a Los Angeles Police Officer. He was a child sexual abuser, and child rapist. He used weapons on me to silence me. Edward Rodgers was a former state and federal law enforcement official. His daughter’s story is below:

    By Patricia Brennan, March 20 1994

    “At times, “Ultimate Betrayal” (a made for TV movie that was broadcast in the 1990’s) is not an easy movie to watch. Based on a true story of incest and physical abuse, it follows four adult sisters as they share their memories and decide to sue their father in civil court.

    Their precedent-setting 1990 lawsuit in a Denver court has repercussions on Capitol Hill. If Rep. Patricia Shroeder (D-Colo.) gets her legislation passed, the Child Abuse Accountability Act will establish procedures to allow child abuse victims to claim court-ordered financial restitution by garnisheeing the federal (but not military) pensions of their abusers even years after the abuse occurred. Currently, federal pensions can be garnisheed for alimony and child support.

    In the film, Marlo Thomas plays Sharon Rodgers Simone, eldest of seven children in a Colorado Springs, Colo., family. Now a middle-aged wife and mother, she is a fearful person on the edge of a nervous breakdown, a woman who sleeps in her car at night, returning at dawn to help get the children off to school. Her husband is keeping the family together.

    When Sharon’s youngest sister, Mary Rodgers LaRocque (Ally Sheedy), calls to ask if she’ll join in a lawsuit against their father, Sharon learns that her three sisters also are leading dysfunctional lives. All four have sought psychological help; three have attempted suicide.

    But unlike Sharon, who has no explanation for her undefined fears, the other sisters know why: As children, they say, they were sexually abused by their father. Sharon hears her sisters’ stories but denies that such horrors occurred — certainly, she believes, not to her. As Thomas put it, “Only Sharon had trouble connecting the dots.”

    Filled with shame, the sisters — Mary, Susan (Mel Harris) and Beth Medlicott (Kathryn Dowling) — had never confided in one another.

    “One of the things that Sue says on the stand is, ‘All my life, I thought this was my shame,’ ” said Thomas. “All of us carry little secrets that have tremendous power because they’re secrets. A secret tears you apart; it stops you. But if you let it out, it has no power. It doesn’t have to be a secret as big as theirs. The secret can be that you just weren’t loved, just the fact that your parents didn’t have time for you.”

    But Mary’s secret was a big one, one she had never told. Sheedy, in one of the most touching and unsettling scenes in the movie, recounts to her older sisters the repeated sexual abuse, including a rape that occurred when she was very young and was the only child left at home.

    Edward J. Rodgers Jr. said that never happened. Rodgers had been an FBI agent for 27 years when he retired from that career in 1967 and became a child-abuse investigator for the 4th Judicial District Attorney’s Office (El Paso County) in Colorado Springs. He also served on the board of a group that supports the rights of abused children.

    The same year he retired from the FBI, he separated from the mother of his seven children. Two years later, he married a woman with a son and two daughters.

    In 1990, long after the Rodgers children were grown, Susan Rodgers Hammond and Sharon Rodgers Simone sued their father, not only to gain money to pay for their therapy, but also hoping for a public accounting and to hear their father acknowledge what happened.

    That he would not do. Edward Rogers failed to appear in court, and in a written deposition, he denied that the sexual abuse ever occurred, although he admitted that he had been a physically rough disciplinarian with a quick temper.

    Nor would his sons Edward, Steve and John, who are seen in the film being beaten as children, participate in the lawsuit. They are seen in the film berating their sisters in the courtroom at the close of the trial. Sharon’s therapist (played by Eileen Brennan), did testify, as did Sharon’s husband, Patrick Simone.

    Without the defendant present, and with no defense counsel, a six-woman Denver jury heard the testimony, considered the evidence for 90 minutes, and awarded them $2.3 million, the largest settlement (at that time) in a case of this nature.

    Thus far, said Thomas, Rodgers has never paid a penny of that sum. Schroeder’s bill, introduced in November of 1993, would tap into Rodgers’s FBI pension. Currently, a federal employee’s pension can be garnisheed only for court-ordered child support or alimony.

    Thomas pointed out that unlike other cases that have caught public attention recently, “This isn’t a case of false memory or repressed memory,” said Thomas. “The other sisters said, ‘I’ve known this all my life,’ but Sharon wouldn’t allow herself to admit that.”

    They related all of this to producer/director Donald Wrye, writer Gregory Goodall and a therapist in an emotional two-day session before the movie went into production. Simone reviewed at least 10 drafts of Goodall’s script. Then the actors were cast.

    “The abuse psychologist we spoke to said everybody plays a different role in the family,” said Thomas. “Sue was the one who fought back and got beaten the most. Sharon was the one who tried to make her father calm down and feel loved, met him at the door, brought him a beer. She thought she was helping by helping her father feel loved. But underneath, there was the guilt of the collaborator.

    “To me, what was very touching was that she {Sharon} didn’t want to lose her father. Every girl needs her daddy. Sharon told me, ‘There’s a part of me that still loves my father.’ Her fantasy was that they would have this trial, the father would be found guilty, and then they would all go around and help other families. She said, ‘I thought maybe we’d make all this bad become good for somebody.’ ”

    Thomas said Sharon eventually came to understand that her vision of family healing was an unlikely scenario. Instead, helping make the movie and working for the Child Abuse Accountability Act have become her way of making “bad become good for somebody.”

    Thomas said after she read the script, she gave the movie a lot of thought.

    “I’ve never done an ‘abuse movie’ before,” she said. “I put {the script} down and I thought, there’s something very special here. It took a lot of courage for these women to stand up to their father. There’s something basic about having your pain acknowledged, having your reality acknowledged.

    “The father had every opportunity to acknowledge his daughters. They asked him to talk, they asked him for money for their therapy, and as a last resort, they sued him to get money for their therapy. But that doesn’t seem to be the real issue. The real issue is, if Dad won’t acknowledge what happened, maybe the jury will. That was the triumph for them.”

    _____________

    THE DENVER POST – Voice of the Rocky Mountain Empire
    May 17, 1990
    Sisters win sex lawsuit vs. dad $2.3 million given for years of abuse
    By Howard Prankratz
    Denver Post Legal Affairs Writer

    1. Terrible story that I have seen in the family in one of my friends. No need to go into details of what happened. Just a sick man that refused help and maintained his denial until his death.

  14. Problem is we (mostly Msfree) bring in these extreme cases that have nothing to do with the issue. We’re not talking about rape, sexual intercourse, pre-adolescents.

    A 30 year old dates an 18 year old! Every bar in Boston in the 1970s-1980s was packed with 30 year olds and 18 year olds. (Legal drinking age: 18).

    Without parental consent, an 18 year old can marry whomever she chooses. Some 18 y.o. young women like older men!

    We all agree unwanted groping is bad.

    We all agree a 30 year old groping a 14 or 16 year old is very bad. (Unless the 16 year old is passing herself off as 18 and is seductive, promiscuous posing in playboy, using a fake I.D., etc., etc., and then it’s . . . . I’ll let you decide.

  15. Abe calls “facts” “pointless”. The “fact” is it’s neither against the law nor immoral to date or kiss an 18 year old.

    So focus on the two “underage” girls, 14 and 16, with 40 year old stories, of dubious credibility. (Troubled, checkered pasts; see above for details.)

    The 16 year old: Phony yearbook story; phony story about being groped and having her “shirt” pulled up.

    Here’s some more facts from Alabama.

    ALABAMA’S COLDEST WINTER ON RECORD 1977-78: AVERAGE TEMPERATURE WAS 38 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT IN BIRMINGHAM http://www.alabamawx.com/?p=27276

    Gadsden is 62 miles northeast of Birmingham. It might be a tad colder in the winter.

    Alabama-Auburn game Nov. 26, 1977 Alabama Score: 48-21 Legion Field, Birmingham : high temperature: 39; low: 26; mean: 36.

    Beverley Nelsone said he signed her yearbook 12-22-77. She says “one to two weeks later” she was standing outside Olde Hickory House at 10:00 P.M. “It was cold.” How cold? What was she wearing? A heavy jacket and sweater? How could he try to pull up “her shirt”? Jacket open? Sweater off?

    Here are the low temperatures for December 26 through January 4. (Christmas and Christmas Eve, I presume she wasn’t working, or she’d have remembered that date. )
    Here are the Low Temperatures in Birmingham each night December 26 through Jan 4 (@ “one to two weeks later): 22 degrees F; 27F; 21F; 21F; 37F; 42F; 35F; 21F; 17F; 19F.

    She says she gets in Moore’s car, drives in back of restaurant. Car has no time to heat up. They’re both freezing, likely wearing heavy coats, gloves, hats, etc, . He parks “between dumpster and restaurant” where trash is always emptied at the end of the night. Where he’s most likely to be seen? How long are they there? 30 seconds? She says she’s “pushed” or “falls out of car”, gets up, walks to front and, lo and behold, there’s her boyfriend waiting and she says nothing about anything to him or anyone else; 2 years later she tells her younger sister something, “a story”?; then 10 years later she tells her mother; then 40 years later she tells the press.

    http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBHM/1977/12/28/DailyHistory.html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=
    The only two days the low temp was in the low 40s was Dec. 24 & 25. (As said, the Olde Hickory House was likely closed Christmas Eve and Christmas Day.) The mean temperature for the month of January 1978 in Birmingham was 34 degrees F., as said the coldest winter in history for Birmingham.

    Beverly Nelson’s story is as phony as the yearbook signatures! She may believe it! As said, look up the psychiatric term Confabulation!

    PUNISHMENT:

    And on 40 year old dubious allegations, some want to fry the man?

    For Congressman Dan Crane and Gerry Studds who admitted having on-going sexual intercourse with 17 year old Congressional pages (employees) on multiple occasions, they’re punishment is a “reprimand”.

    For Judge Moore who denies 40 year old charges of groping?

    Perhaps the search for “the truth” in this day and age is “pointless.”

    I cheer for the underdog. I don’t like piling on. I don’t like “mass hysteria”. Salem Witch Trials are more subtle these days and are often conducted by the MSM.

    I’ve seen what character assassins have done to honorable persons in contemporary times and throughout history.

    J’ACCUSE!
    (Remember Zola’s pamphlet condemned the government (and Press and Public) for convicting an innocent man, Dreyfus, on flimsy evidence.

    1. Yep … Reading … substitute …. their … for … they’re .. in above : ‘ they’re punishment is a reprimand . ,’

  16. I know few care, and probably no one is listening or reading! So, I write in the hope that someone in cyberspace may comprehend and benefit; someone perhaps from some future time and place.

    Here’s the New York Times trying to be fair (with a few annotations) about Judge Roy Moore:

    NYT 11/19: “As with everything concerning Mr. Moore, accounts vary. Alice Bircheat, the longtime bookkeeper at the Y.M.C.A., said that she recalled “not one complaint” about Mr. Moore. (He was a longtime YMCA member) Terry White, 70, a former Gadsden police officer who worked security at the mall, said, “Nobody, as far as I know, ever complained.” (He was never “barred from the mall”, although some young women recall being “bothered” by him chatting them up: “too old” some said. Others would’ve said he was an older brother of five who liked to flirt, chat and tease. So what?) Myron K. Allenstein, a local lawyer who rented office space to Mr. Moore and later tried cases with him, insisted that Mr. Moore was a man of unimpeachable character. “He’s real down to earth but feels real strongly about what he believes,” he said. Mr. Allenstein noted that he was a Democrat who planned to vote for Mr. Moore in the Dec. 12 election.”

    Then the NYT talks about those “offended” by a 30 year old man flirting with young women: it was “not appropriate” according to one old lady.

    The NYT does mention that in his 1965 High School Yearbook he was voted “Most Likely to Succeed” and was elected “high school president”, then the NYT editorializes deprecatingly by saying “he was remembered more by his classmates as hard-working than sociable.” The NYT mentions he graduated in “the bottom quarter” of his West Point class. (He graduated 684 out of 800.) He apparently excelled at boxing there. He called the boxing ring “the great equalizer.” He was a fighter!!! He served in Vietnam, Later in life, after Law School and a stint as an Assistant D.A., and losing an election for a judgeship, he moved to Texas where he apparently studied and excelled at kickboxing, then spent some time working on a cattle ranch in Australia. He returned to Gadsden, resumed practicing law, and: “Mr. Allenstein remembered him as “a great orator” who was particularly gifted at closing arguments. He’d always say, “Myron you take care of the law, just get me to the jury,” Mr. Allenstein said, “Because he was a great talker.”

    The NYT continues “At a Christmas gathering in 1984, as he describes in his book, he met a 23-year-old woman named Kayla Kisor, 14 years his junior, whom he immediately recognized from a dance recital he had attended “many years before.” They married the next year.” Married at 38 to a 24-year-old woman! Perfect: for 33 years a happy marriage with 4 children; 5 granddaughters.

    We’ve all read of Moore’s fights for the Ten Commandments and against Gay Marriage. Lifelong, he’s been a fighter, who stood up for what he believed in!

    Of course, NYT closes with Kathy Sisson saying she’d heard of Moore’s alleged assault on the 14 year old, Leigh Corfman, a long time ago. CNN reports that Sisson was told in the 1990s by Corfman’s mother, her close friend; told what? the “story”; Leigh says she told her mother the story in the 1980s, ten years after the fact. In the law, that’s called triple hearsay. Ten years after X occurred, A told B; another ten years later, B told C; another 20 years later, A publicly says X occurred 40 years ago; and the proof is she told B 30 years ago, and B told C 20 years ago. (Of course A also says she told her friends she was “dating” an older man; she did not contemporaneously tell her friends any sordid details; those were first articulated (or confabulated apparently) ten years later.

    You see why we have credibility problems, hearsay evidence rules, and statutes of limitations?

    What if A was a confused adolescent, troubled, involved in sex, drugs, alcohol, who had a tendency to make up stories or exaggerate or confabulate? What if?

    Are we to crucify, condemn or throw stones at anyone based on 40 year old “what ifs?”

    What if everything happened exactly as the 14 and 16 year old said forty years ago? But there’s no “proof”! He signed a yearbook. So what? Looks like he didn’t sign it. Looks like two inks were used and part of the signature was forged. Well, he dated or asked on dates a half-dozen 18 year olds! So what? Three said no; two said he acted the perfect gentlemen and only kissed them; one said he kissed her one time only but it was forceful. So what? A 28 year old felon (check forger) says he grabbed her butt once! Never told anyone for years. So what?

    P.S. Today, 11-19, Alabama’s three largest newspapers endorsed Doug Jones over Roy Moore: “Vote for Decency” they said. (They’d all endorsed Hillary over Trump). Decency? Jones favors abortion for any reason throughout nine months of pregnancy. He publicly opposes a Congressional bill to limit abortions after 20 months. (Although he said yesterday, he supported Alabama’s law which limits abortions after 22 months.) He’s also publicly stated he’d oppose any law which “limits a woman’s right to choose . . .when the child is born, that’s when I become pro-life.” The “decent” words of Doug Jones!

  17. P.S.

    I remind myself of Franz Kafka’s “The Hunger Artist”! Or the tree felled in the wood by natural processes which no one hears; I guess I am like all men, “whose words have forked no lightning.”

    Then again, I say to myself, so what? keep punching, march on! Everybody loves a parade.

    So, Happy Thanksgiving Day, to one and all, except the Commie-Bun-Party-Dolls-and-their Droll-Masters of Deceit = socialists, liberals!!!

      1. P.S. You really shouldn’t have jumped the gun on this one. You should have said, “What do you mean by pointless?” but you don’t have the patience. Next time look before you leap. Its an old expression. I think it has something to do with creating facts that don’t exist. Like judging a man on 40 year old evidence instead of waiting for the facts to be proven.

        I’ll say it again. Pointless. And you proved my point, but only to me.
        And I also say to myself, so what? keep punching, march on! Everybody loves a parade. So put away your grenade.

  18. Charles Manson is dead. RIH, Charlie. Rest In Hell.

    And what did keeping him alive all these years accomplish? Nothing! One bullet and we are on with our lives. And all the a-holes like Tom Snyder and Charlie Rose that interviewed him suck, too. Why give a piece of shite like him a seat in front of a microphone? Why would a single word out of his mouth be worth listening to? Ratings and nothing else. Just another bit of proof that freak shows sell and there is always some carnival barker willing to compromise his craft for viewers and bucks. Pathetic!

  19. I apologize to Abe for misconstruing his point.
    I’ll debate the meaning of “pointless” no further.

    As for today’s well rehearsed spectacle on the Today Show, I say this (sticking to my guns and throwing a little TNT into the MSM’s attempt to rekindle 40-year-old unverifiable allegations):

    On NBC today’s show: Leigh Corfman misled the audience: when she was asked, Did you tell anyone immediately? She said, “Right after I told two of my good friends; and later another.” She lied later, when asked “Why did you wait (40 years, to tell): She said, “I did tell people; my family knew; family friends knew; my friends knew.”

    The first person in her family to “know” was her mother, told 13-15 years later, when Moore became “prominent” as a judge. She says she told her own children some 30-35 years after the fact. Told what? She dated Judge Moore? In the Washing Post, she said she only contemporaneously told her friends that she was “seeing” an older man; she mentioned “seeing” Moore to one. They recall being told this “as teenagers”! (14, 15, 17, 18 year olds?) Told what? They say she said she was “seeing” him or “dating” “an older man.” She never said she mentioned the sordid details to her teenage friends, nor do her teenage friends say she mentioned the sordid details to them.

    She mentioned the sordid details to no-one for nearly 15 years!!!! That’s the fact!!!
    She’s fabricating!!!!!

    Wash Post: She “went to Courthouse in February 1979. . . Moore called a few days later. Moore was appointed a Judge in (late) 1992; didn’t run for office until 1994; didn’t achieve “prominence” until probably sometime between 1992 and 1994 (13 to 15 years after the February 1979 allegation; which she told no one about until probably 1994.)

    Wash Post: “A friend named Betsy Davis says she talked to Corfman about her seeing an “older man” named Roy Moore when they were teenagers. A second friend of Corfman’s anonymously confirmed that she remembered Corfman talking about seeing an older man when she was a teenager. Wells, the mother, said Corfman told her the story more than 10 years after it happened when Moore was a judge.”

    On NBC Today’s Show, Leigh Corfman says she’s received “no money”, but she’s received “support” from “all over the country.”

    She knows, she admits she’s a thrice-divorced mother of two, from a broken family, a troubled teenager (drugs, alcohol, “boyfriends”, suicide attempt all by age 16); she knows that the Dems/Libs will take very good care of her for the rest of her life if she helps knock off Judge Moore. She’s not naive! Why wouldn’t she fib a bit? She’s seen the pot of gold (plus fame, popularity) awaiting her. Powerful motives to confabulate?

    I rest my case, but reserve the right of rebuttal!

  20. Conclusion: Ms. Corfman continues to fabricate and confabulate.

    1. Wash. Post: “( Corfman’s mother) Wells says her daughter told her about the encounter more than a decade later, as Moore was becoming more prominent as a local judge.” More like 15 years later! (See above.)

    2. On NBC she says she was “going to confront him . . This was in 2000, 2001. I wanted to walk into his office and say, ‘Hey, remember me? You need to knock this stuff off. I need to go public.’ My children were small, so I didn’t do it.”
    Knock what stuff off? She had no knowledge that he did any “stuff” with anyone else in 2000, 20001!

    3. On NBC, Corfman says, the difference in 2017 is “The Washington Post sought me out. I didn’t go looking for this; this fell in my lap.” The Post convinced her he’d done the same to others. He hadn’t. (Remember, Gloria Allred’s story came out weeks after the original Post story.) “Corfman says she agreed to share details only after The Washington Post sought her out and gave her assurances she wasn’t the only one accusing Moore of misconduct.” The original Post story mentioned two 18 year olds (one said she was 17-18; the other 18) who dated Moore; he kissed them; acted a perfect gentleman; a third, aged 16, said, in the presence of her mother, he asked her out (did he know her age? Was he teasing?) the mother said, “No!” she’s too young. That’s it!
    But the Washington Post told Leigh Corfman that they’d “found” other accusers. The Post conned her, lied to her, gave credibility to her confabulation. How do we know this? Here’s the end of the Post’s original (11-9) article: ”Corfman is the only one who said she had ‘sexual contact’ with Moore.”

    4. Even today, NBC reports 9 women have come forward and accused Moore of “pursuing” them. How about chatting them up, asking them out, dating them? How about 2 women have accused him of sexual assault 40 years ago. One’s got a phony yearbook, who’s standing outside in “a shirt” in 20 degree weather! The other is Leigh Corfman.

    Now again, when did Leigh Corfman first tell anyone that this old man, allegedly Roy Moore, touched her sexually? Fifteen years after the fact! “When Moore was becoming more prominent as a district judge.”)

    I again rest my case, pending rebuttal on appeal, signed, The Hunger Artist

  21. http://www.vachss.com/graffiti_wall/when_people_tell.jpg

    also see
    http://www.vachss.com/updates_page.html

    In my 40+ years on the front lines, I’ve been interviewed countless times, in endless venues. But I’ve yet to be asked this question: “What do you consider the most important issue in American child protection today?” My answer would be: Closing the (deliberately inserted) loophole in the Federal Child Prevention and Treatment Act which permits states to allow “representation” of children in abuse/neglect cases by lay volunteers [such as “CASA” or non-lawyer “Guardian ad Litem”]. That’s right: those accused of abuse are guaranteed lawyers; those alleged to be victims of abuse are not. That is fundamentally and foundationally wrong. Morally and ethically unacceptable. Devoid of logic. Guaranteed to produce the worst results. And the LAW in (far too) many states. Changing that law is the current task of the Legislative Drafting Institute for Child Protection. And I don’t know of more important work. Before you decide to support us (or not) look at the facts:

    The difference between representation by attorneys and “representation” by lay volunteers.

    The damage that results.

    Where I stand on this issue.

    Where do you stand?

    1. Where do I stand?
      On the side of truth, justice and the American way, and against today’s liberalism, against socialism, against Orwellian Big Government, against abortion (except in very rare medical circumstances to save lives, such as ectopic pregnancies), in favor of a strong military, but against military imperialism, against excessive interventionism, against bullies and brow-beaters, and for free speech, free association, free exercise of religion and other constitutional freedoms, for equal protection under the law, and for traditional marriage.
      Strike up the band!

  22. In 2011, when she’s 35, Leigh Corfman says she parked in the court’s parking lot and was about to confront Judge Moore: “I wanted to walk into his office and say, ‘Hey, remember me? You need to knock this stuff off. I need to go public.’ My children were small so I didn’t do it,” she said.”

    As I asked above, “Knock what stuff off?” She knew nothing about any another “stuff” Judge Moore had allegedly done. No one in public or secret had ever told her that Moore had done or was continuing to do stuff he had to “knock off.” No one in 2001 had accused Moore of any impropriety. What the hell was she talking about? Judge Moore was married with four children in 2001. Knock what stuff off?

    Her very story, broadcast live on NBC’s Today Show, proves she’s a fabricator, a confabulator. She has somehow imagined and convinced herself that she was on the verge of going into his office in 2001 and telling him to knock off “stuff” she knew nothing about. What stuff? “Hey, Judge, it’s 2001; stop doing what you did in 1979. Knock off the stuff you did 20 years ago, if you did any stuff!” She’s fabricating on live T.V.? She’s making up stories, telling tall tales, inventing a fable. She’s a fabulist. She’s a proven confabulator.

    (2) Inconsistencies with her Washington Post story. The Post said they grilled her 6 times and she stuck to her story. The Post said she told two contemporaries (one named, one anonymous) that she was dating “an older man”. On live T.V. her story changes slightly and she adds that she told “a third” later on. She implies on live T.V. she told the whole sordid story. The Post story seems to say two “teenagers” confirm she “told them” only that she “was seeing” an “older man”, “Moore”, said one.

    (3) In the original Post story she told no one the sordid details; only that she was “seeing” an older man. She says she first confided the sordid details to her mom, “over ten years later.” Turns out it was more like 12 to 15 years later when Judge Moore became “prominent.” But on live T. V. she conveniently omits any mention of the timeline and acts as if contemporaneously she had told “family, friends, and family friends.” She’s confabulating and she and NBC are colluding to pull the wool over the American audience’s eyes.

    CONCLUSION: She’s fabricating right before our eyes! NBC is colluding in her fabrications; NBC is aiding and abetting her confabulations.

    Signed,

    Billy C., a Hunger Artist

    “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for justice’s sake . . . . .”

    1. Anytime you play the confabulation card you risk sounding like a … confabulater . This is a risky assemblage of cards in a high stakes bluff to beat a Royal Flush of female accusers of Judge Moore . He deserves his day in court . A frantic defense that ignores a certain moral force more likely to compel his accusers than any tenuous crap about an eleventh hour political sabotage is utterly … Confabulating !

  23. Confounded confabulators and triple-hear-sayers perpetuating 40 year old “horror” stories. Worse than the Salem Witch Trials’ accusers: at least those Seventeen-Century teens were describing contemporary delusions and mass hysteria!

  24. If you had to bet your life … That the larger than life Judge Roy Moore …was innocent of a historical propensity for teenage carnal conquest … Or guilty …. I am really curious how quickly you would vote Judge Roy Moore off the island .

  25. 1. First to answer the question at hand: Would I vote Roy off the Island? No!

    A man who dated three or four 18 year-olds and did nothing more than kiss them. I’d vote not guilty. President of his high school class; voted “Most Likely to Succeed”; West Point Grad; Vietnam Veteran; 30 years in public limelight; lawyer, assistant D.A., judge for 20 years; married a 24 year-old at age 38, 4 children, 5 granddaughters. Two accusations of “groping” 40 years ago, when he was 30-32! WITHOUT A SHRED OF DOUBT I VOTE “NOT GUILTY”! Did he like attractive young women (@18-24)? What heterosexual man doesn’t? Thousands attest to his lifelong integrity!

    2. Now back to the case at hand.

    THE PLOT THICKENS; (the media sickens and sleazily sinks into slime)

    Now here this: A new Witness for the Prosecution steps forward; she’s no impostor, but hardly credible.

    Patti Spradlin, a friend of Leigh, says that another friend of Leigh told her the story “37 years ago”. Now that’s triple-hearsay, heard one-year after the fact (1980), as recalled 37 years after the fact. (Leigh’s “story” occurred in February 1979, which will be 39 years ago this February 2018; so not to nitpick, but if Patti heard “the story” “37 years ago” it was closer to 2 years after the fact; but let’s not quibble.)

    And sure enough, Patti believes Leigh because, she says, someone else molested Patti herself when she was young, too, and she never told anyone for 50 years, either. This is what Patti said on NBC and CNN T. V., just today!

    Plus, Patti says that she remembers it all like it was yesterday: Whenever all the young teen girls (her friends) were at the Mall and they saw Roy Moore, they ran and hid “in a safe place” and “never looked him in the eye” for fear of being . . . sort of drawn in, hypnotized and put under some sort of spell – words to that effect. No kidding! The 14 year old girls were terrified of him; they found him “creepy” and “icky” in Patti’s words. And she knew then, at 14, that he was gunning for 14 year olds.

    Well, you know the rest of that teen Horror Story, don’t you?

    Was it Friday the 13th, or Whatever Happened on Elm Street, or the Maniac at the Mall, or The Little Mall of Horrors or Psycho-Hysteria? Something like that! Screenplay by Stephen King or Flannery O’Connor or William Faulkner or Harper Lee or Patricia Highsmith!

    Signed,

    Billy C., The Hunger Artist,

    Waiting for Godot, gol darnit! Waiting for the Media’s gol darn Rumor Mills to whip up some more Southern-fried Whoppers!

    Stay tuned! You won’t believe what’s coming next; you won’t believe “what really happened” forty years ago on Mulberry Street!

    P.S. It’s funny because Leigh told Wash Post that she only told 2 friends that she was “seeing” an older man, Roy Moore. I guess she withheld the fact that she told some other friends “the whole story” back then, who then told Patti “the whole story” a year or two later. The Wash Post said that after 6 cross-examinations (6 interviews) Leigh always told the same story, which was this: She only told the whole story to her mother more than ten years later. (12-15 years later, actually) Or maybe, something else happened? Maybe her story morphed, or the Wash Post missed something, or we got a case of mass hysterical histrionics? Or maybe, these “stories” just ain’t jiving!

    I’m going to call in Agatha Christie and Lawrence Block and Alfred Hitchcock to put the finishing touches on this mysterious psycho-drama horror story, that’s spinnin’ OUTTA sight into the Twilight Zone.

    THE END (for now)

    1. 11. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBORS TEENAGE DAUGHTER . FOR IF THOU SHALL DO SO AND A PREDILECTION BE WITH SOUTHERN GALLANTRY NOTED THAT YOU DIGGETH ‘ THE CHICKADEES NUBILE , THEN EVEN A FORTY YEAR OLD ACCOUNT THAT YOU MAY HAVE OVERSTEPPED THE METES OF THE LIBERTINE SOUTHERN SQUIRE WITH A FOURTEEN YEAR OLD HAS …. MERIT .

      1. That’s exactly what I was going to say.

        In the atmosphere of today, he is screwed. I can’t wait to see some of the post mortem charges that will be laid on the graves of prominent men (and maybe women?) in the coming months. I just hope that Captain Kangaroo stays clean.

        What I meant by pointless, Bill C., is that no amount of details you come up with are going to change anyone’s mind at this time. The sides have been split and the die is cast. The details in your posts are commendable but the time it takes to do the research and bring it forth will never outweigh the charges. Not everyone can be as lucky as Clarence Thomas. And there again when Miss Hill first spoke at the hearings I assumed incorrectly that a woman in her position would certainly have kept a diary of some kind documenting the advances made by Thomas.

        Men have been grabbing asses since men and asses have existed. Some of the advances that have been made have been inappropriate and some have been cast aside as absolutely nothing by the grabees. But now we have this wave of shame sweeping the land and there are a lot of people saying, “Ya know what? Mister Rodgers once brushed by me in the WGBH parking lot and I am sure his erect penis made contact with the fender of my AMC Gremlin.” And off we go.

        And now we see that both left and right leaning men are on trial. This is a gender thing, not a political thing, in many cases.

        My wife lived in Rome for most of her teen years and from her accounts every Italian man would be on trial if this happened over there. Every buttocks a bull’s eye to them.

  26. True, gentlemen, true . . . Italy’s a good example. And yes, coveting and courting are birds of different feathers.

    The 1970s Commandment was “Thou shall not covet anyone under 16 (age of consent); modified lawfully to thou shalt not covet employees; modified socially (by some) to “old guys” over 25 like Elvis and Springer should have stayed away from 17 year old girls.”

    But, yes, the sides are set; the votes (the die) will be cast; and off we’ll all go into another sunset and sunrise.

    And, yes, in four hundred years historians will likely recall the year (or years) of Salem-like mass hysteria when reputations and careers crumbled because a man allegedly “forcibly” kissed a woman or groped a teen decades earlier.

    And in time, it’ll all be Ancient History! Till then read the next post:

  27. Additional refutation of accuser Beverly Nelson (the girl with the dubious yearbook (likely forged): Note this information was presented to “multiple news outlets. The outlets have failed to report.” Note: Some outlets did report, but sparingly. Here’s some quotes from below which raise more doubts.

    http://ibankcoin.com/zeropointnow/2017/11/20/roy-moore-refutes-sexual-assault-claim-with-statements-by-former-restaurant-employees-customers/#sthash.TgxX5S8E.dpbs

    “According to a former waitress, Olde Hickory House required employees to be 16 years old. Nelson claims she was 15 when she started.
    “According to two former employees, the dumpsters were on the side of the building. Nelson claimed that they were in the back. (Nelson also claimed Moore parked between dumpsters and restaurant; employees said there was no room for a car between side-dumpsters and restaurant.)
    “Olde Hickory House sat right off of the four-lane highway and had a wrap-around porch with lights all around it. Nelson claimed that the surroundings were “dark and isolated.”
    “Rhonda Ledbetter, who worked at Olde Hickory House for almost 3 years (1977-79), states that the earliest it closed was at 11 p.m. but she believes it was open until midnight. She is certain it did not close at 10:00 because Goodyear was next door, and employees came to eat when their shift ended at 10 p.m. Nelson claims her story occurred after the restaurant closed at 10 p.m.
    “Multiple sources have claimed that everyone parked on the sides of the building because there wasn’t much room behind the restaurant, according to Rhonda not enough room to turn around.
    “Nelson claimed that Judge Roy Moore came in almost every night and sat at the counter, but . . . two former waitresses and two former patrons state they never saw Judge Moore come into the restaurant.”

    A cop, a regular customer, said he never saw Moore there.

    “These witnesses have shared their testimony with multiple news outlets. The outlets have failed to report.” Note: some outlets have reported sparingly, one disparagingly saying Rhonda was a former “actress” and the employment records of the Olde Hickory House could not be confirmed. They didn’t say that about Beverly.

    A quote from that cop: “Johnny Belyeu, Sr. is a former police officer with over two decades of experience with the Etowah County Sheriff’s Department and the Gadsden Police Department. He said in a statement, “I was an officer with the Etowah County Sheriff’s Department in the 1970s which means I worked in the courthouse and knew who Roy Moore was since he was the Deputy District Attorney at the time. I was a regular customer at Olde Hickory House, and I never once saw Judge Moore come in there. If he had I would have immediately recognized him. I also never met Beverly Nelson during any of the many times I frequented the restaurant, and I can’t say that she even worked there.”

    All’s well that ends well, I suppose!

    1. Yes, Msfree, 300 mostly Democratic, liberal Pastors and “Faith Leaders” like the Al Sharptons of the World, I suspect, are throwing stones (let he who is without sin cast the first stones at the very first unproven allegation). I’d bet most voted Hillary and we’re going to vote for Doug anyway. How many have known Judge Roy Moore for decades, over the lifetime. It’s easy to throw stones.

      In contrast, the rumor mills and character assassins do have their effect, of the 56 Pastors who signed a letter in August endorsing Moore, I understand that a few have quavered, yet 53 still stand by him. I heard the powerful testimony of women who’ve known Moore his lifelong through attest to his integrity. I’ve heard the testimony of dozens of Evangelical “faith leaders” who’ve know him lifelong who still stand by him.

      I recall after Bill Clinton’s admitted transgressions, impeachment, perjury, all the liberal “faith leaders”, pols and pundits surged to his defense!! Clinton, the accused rapist and admitted adulterer, admitted predator, admitted groper of multiple women, the leftist “faith leaders” declared “fit” for office, forgiven his sins, exculpated; but Roy Moore who denies the 40 year old allegations of two accusers is stoned to death by the liberal media and its “faith leaders” for his “sins”.

      Today, they can’t wait to cast stones . . .at conservatives!

      Please revisit Harper Lee’s “To Kill a Mockingbird” and remember how a poor southern girl swore an older black man raped her, when in fact he had rejected her, and the jury and practically the whole town believed her and convicted him! Why had she concocted the story? To destroy him; for revenge; because he had rejected her, hurt her feelings, and her teen fantasy (of mutual attraction) was crushed.

  28. Yes. Msfreeh, I see the pot boiling. I see the witches’ brew!

    1. Know how many grown men go to high school football games? Tons!
    Did Moore “harass” or “tease” or “chat up” the cheerleaders? Did the cop file a complaint? Does he have it in writing?
    Contradictory evidence? The Manager of the Mall said he’d never received a complaint about Roy Moore. Never! Not one! Thousands attest to Moore’s integrity and also attest to his “talkativeness”.
    (NTDN’s EE is totally untrustworthy as is almost everything printed in the leftist NY Daily Newss? But I will read reluctantly her column: to cover all the bases.)

    2. Now answer me this:
    The Washington Post says Leigh Corfman told the exact same story 6 times; In its first Big Breaking Story (Nov. 9) the Post says she ONLY told her friends “she was dating an older man” Two friends confirmed this; one said it was Moore. But in that Big Breaking Story, there’s no mention that she told her friends she was assaulted and neither friend says she told them then that she was assaulted.

    If I’m reading everything correctly, the first time she mentions the assault was in the mid-1990s (when Judge Moore was gaining “prominence”) then she told her Mom; her Mom tells that “story” to some of her friends? Why? The sin of bearing false witness . . . the fun of blabbing, the fun of tearing down someone’s character, character assassination, who knows? It’s @15 years after the fact that the “sexual assault” part of the story is first told. (According to the Washington Post’s original exhaustively researched Big Breaking News.) Then on TV yesterday, Leigh Corfman pretends she told everyone all along; then on NBC & CNN a new “friend” comes along who says she heard the “touching” “clothing removal” story 37 years ago, (one to two years after the fact) from a friend of Leigh, when Leigh told the Post and Leigh’s friends told the Post she only told them she was “dating” or “seeing” “an older man.” Even that was a fib, as she only saw him twice; but in her confabulations, twice was “seeing”.

    You see how things get curiouser and curiouser?

    The point is: If she told the same story to the Post six times and they printed it, her original story is she ONLY told her friends she was seeing an “older man”?

    Why would a teen, over the years, confabulate? It happens! Especially to troubled teens. She admits a troubled youth. By 1995 Leigh was 35 (how many divorces had she had by then?); why did she feel a need to tear down Judge Moore? Because he rejected her (in her mind)? Because she hated men? Why the need to fabricate a relationship with Judge Moore when she was 14? Because she was desperate for attention from contemporaries, so she bragged; because her mother and father were going through a tough divorce which left her devoid of attention and affection?

    Remember, the CONFABULATOR is not “lying”: they believe their confabulations, they believe their fabrications. It’s a PSYCHIATRIC problem.

    3. You believe he assaulted a 14 year old because he chatted up teen cheerleaders and kissed three 18 year olds, two of whom described him as a harmless, perfect gentlemen; the third said he kissed her “forcefully”?

    Finally, remember the end of the Wash Post’s original hyperventilating, hyperfalutin, disingenous article: “None of the other girls accused him of any sexual impropriety.” When after 40 paragraphs they had implied the opposite!

    We’ve got his female law school contemporaries describing him as a tease and goof, always chatting, turning around in class; we’ve got his law partner describing his as a “great talker”; he’s elected “class president”; he’s the oldest brother of five and likes to tease and “chat up” the teens; and for this we convict him of what?

    There are just two accusers of sexual assault; both their stories are 40 years old and both are highly dubious.

  29. Msfreeh: Here’s another response (please read above two posts) to your Alabama cop story:

    Faye Gray says she was a cop (juvenile detective) in the 1980s. She admits that her department NEVER received a complaint about Moore.

    Here are her fabrications. She says in the 1980s she was told to watch Moore at games because he might harass the cheerleaders. He was running for Judge in 1982. He wouldn’t be harassing anyone, in public or private. Did she see or get any reports or allegations or eyewitness accounts of him harassing cheerleaders or anyone else? No!

    2. She says she “heard rumors he was suspended from the Gadsden Mall.” The Mall manager, according to the NYT, not only denies this, but says he NEVER received a complaint about Moore.

    3. “Gray, a 37-year police veteran who was a detective for the juvenile division at the time, said the department took no action against Moore because it never received complaints on the allegations.” She means rumors. But what“allegations”? That he was chatting up teenagers. That he was acting like a talkative politician?

    Please point to a statute on the books in Alabama in the 1970s or mid-1980s that makes that a crime, or of any interest to police. Sexual Harassment Laws (Title IX, Civil Rights Acts of 1964) apply to workplaces and a school football field certainly could be covered. But no coach, no teacher, no parent, no student ever filed a notice that Moore sexually harassed anyone – – – ever!!!! And, anyone familiar with Title IX, knows there is an affirmative duty on coaches, teachers, police, etc, etc, to report any instances or allegations of sexual harassment. None were ever reported against Moore throughout his life!!!!

  30. P.S. Moore first ran for Judge in 1982, and lost. Was appointed in 1992, after judge in office died. Ran in 1994 and won for first time. (As I recollect the history.)

  31. I want briefly to put this all in context: factually, legally, medically:

    But first I’ll say this: In small towns and big cities, there are rumor mongers who delight in character assassination. The Bible warns us against those who bear “false witness” and ethicists further warn against gossip and detraction.

    NOW HEAR THIS:

    1. In case you didn’t know, young women can be very attractive:

    Teresa Michelle Scanlan (born February 6, 1993[2]) from Gering, Nebraska, was named Miss Nebraska 2010, (July 2010) subsequently winning Miss America 2011 and becoming the youngest Miss America since Bette Cooper in 1937.[3] Miss America contest was held in Las Vegas in January 2011. Miss Scanlan was still seventeen: The Beatles sang, “She was just seventeen, you know what I mean, and the way she looked was way beyond compare, oh how could I dance with another, when I saw her standing there?”

    Elizabeth “Bette” Cooper-Moore (born August 11, 1920) won the Miss America 1937 pageant (held September 1937 in Atlantic City) as Miss Bertrand Island, representing an amusement park on Lake Hopatcong in New Jersey. She was born in Hackettstown, New Jersey. She’d just turned 17. She’s still alive, age 97.

    Three 17 year olds and one 16-year old were centerfolds in Playboy. A thousand Playboy models were 18, as was Barbi Benton when first courted by Heffner. Every bar in America was stacked full of 18 year old young women (in 1970s; only 11 states’ legal drinking age was over 19) courted by men of all ages.

    “16-year-old Candice Stodden married then 50-year-old actor Doug Hutchison in 2011.” Wonder how that turned out? . . . “In January 2017, it was reported that Stodden and Hutchison have separated. However, they are still living together for the time being.” Wikipedia!

    2. BIOLOGY: A child. Biologically a child is defined as ”a human being between the stages of birth and puberty.” The Bible says “Mary was with child”. “The unborn child” is a common phrase. Beware abortionists of Hell’s special place for those who hurt children.

    3. THE LAW: A child: In U.S. Immigration Law, a child is anyone under 21. The U.N. commission on human rights defines a child as a human being under age 18, unless otherwise defined by a State. Singapore says a child is under 14. Federal Child Pornography statutes apply to sexual depictions of anyone under age 18. (Exceptions exist for serious artistic works, medical textbooks, etc.). Playboy skipped by probably because of lax enforcement back in the 1950s, 60s, 70s.) Generally speaking, many would say that a child is someone under the age of consent: less than 16.

    4. PSYCHIATRY: “Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.”- not applicable. “Pederasty is a (usually erotic) homosexual relationship between an adult male and a pubescent or adolescent male.” – not applicable. “Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent (early adolescent) children (especially those showing Tanner stages 2-3 of development), which is typically ages 11–14.” – not applicable.

    Next up “Ephebophilia is the primary sexual interest in mid-to-late adolescents, generally ages 15 to 19. Ephebophilia strictly denotes the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction.” – why is this not applicable? Because none of the stories so far are about “sexual partners”; two are about kissing; one is about asking out; another “asking out story” was by a 22-year-old; the women who alleges her buttocks got grabbed was 28; he married his wife when she was 24, she caught his eye when she was 16 (“some level of attraction; she perhaps looked like 17 year old Miss Scanlon, Miss USA; who’d catch anyone’s eye”); Roy started dating her when she was 23.

    Yes, he had “some level of attraction” to beautiful 18 year olds, like Miss America, as all heterosexual men do, but his preference was what he ended up with: a beautiful mature young women, his wife, Kayla.

    The 14 and 16 allegations were one time aberrations (if true, although very doubtful). At worst, you could conclude he liked young women like Hefner, Elvis or Springer, (18-24), but preferred what he got: a 24 year old. The proof: Happily married for 33 years!

  32. Wa-llahi! I can see why Moore needs to carry that little pistol he flourished on TV. The “judge” should have been horse whipped long ago. There’s no excuse for his behavior. He only got away with it because of the oppressive class structure down South. If an upper-class prick in an official position has a hankering for teen-age girls, trailer kids don’t have much of a defense. Somebody ought to blow that SOB away.

    1. And on that pleasant holiday note;

      Have a Happy Thanksgiving, all.

      Now Khalid can detail the genocide of the Native People 🙂

  33. Yes, kinda a sour note on this holiday, khalid, but redeemed by Abe’s apt sense of humor.

    For all you prudes, prunes, pranksters, or Buddhist plums in Plum Village out there, let’s consider Elizabeth Taylor this Happy Thanksgiving Day. Why? You’ll see! And it’s not plumb loco.

    Elizabeth Taylor (born Feb. 1932) was 16 in 1948 when dating 24 year old West Point football star, Glenn Davis (he was born Dec. 1924). Also at 16, she starred in the 1948 film “A Date with Judy”, a comedy about a 30 year old guy (Robert Stack) dating two high school seniors. At 17 she was engaged to Army Air Force pilot William Pawley, Jr. who was 28. Then, for a short time she was courted by millionaire Howard Hughes (Hughes was 44), who allegedly offered her family $1 million for her hand in marriage. Her mother said Hughes only courted her in her mother’s presence. At 17, she starred in “A Place in the Sun, (1949), a drama about love gone wrong. Also at 17, she starred in “The Conspirator” (1949), another “adult role” but she was still in high school and verbally despaired about getting her schoolwork done, “How can I when Robert Taylor (her co-star) keeps sticking his tongue down my throat?” She had a sense of humor.

    At age 18, on May 6, 1950, Elizabeth married Conrad Hilton, Jr. (He was 44, too, like Hughes); she then divorced him at 19. At 20 she married Michael Wilding (age 40), with whom she had two sons. “Taylor found their age gap appealing as she wanted ‘the calm and quiet and security of friendship’ from their relationship’”

    The point? Some young women (16, 17, 18) like older men. Almost everyone liked the young starlet!

    1. Your idea of Buddhist Plums in Plum Village out there is not the Buddhist Plums in Plum Village out there .

      Sit with that .

      This statistical teen age grab ass index of levels of Judge Roy Moore ‘s propriety or impropriety , legality or criminality , and all other cultural arcana concerning just when people get a creepy feeling when a professional older man is shopping the girls reformatory for a Lawyer’s picnic party is ….. Plum … Strange .

      He deserves his day in court. The statute of limitations ordains that this must be the court of public opinion . Better to keep your counsel , like Trump , on the matter , than muddy the waters with anecdotes and arguments supporting the insupportable . For , if Ray Moore is a roué and a hypocrite and a historic despoiler of teenage girls , then you are doing just that .

      Happy Thanksgiving !

  34. What if it was your sister, daughter, niece, that scum bag tree-jumper was trying to poke?
    Moore ought to be on a chain gang, or, holding down a bunk in Holman SHU. They could never release him into ordinary population. Moore wouldn’t last a week.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

  35. Khalid: One more in Gadsden Alabama told her daughter she was the luckiest girl in the world to be dating Roy Moore.
    On a personal note, my whole life through, I’ve loved to read; as an adult, I grew to really like doing research. In many fields. I’ve labored in many vineyards.

    FOR YOUR EDIFICATION:

    For Khalid and others who want to execute people for alleged acts of groping forty years ago. Here are some facts. About as brief a Synopsis as I can do (for now)!
    All charges against Judge Moore (8 are from 1977-1982; one is from 1991:

    From September 1977 (when he had finished West Point, his tour of Military Service in Germany and Vietnam, Law School and passed the Bar Exam) to December 1982 (when in late ’82, after losing an election for judgeship, he left Gadsden Alabama for Texas, stayed about 9 months, studies martial arts, and then became a cattle rancher in Australia’s Outback for about 1 year. He returned to Gadsden in December 1984, the same month he met his future wife and married her in 1985.

    The charges against Moore in 1977-1982: (a ninth charge was in 1991)
    (1) He asked out six young women; three he dated, a 17 year old, an 18 year old, and an 18 year old college freshmen (almost 19). All three said he did nothing more than kiss them; one said he kissed her “forcefully”. Three other women said they declined his request for a date: one was 17; a 16 year old standing with her mother at mall was asked: the Mother said No! (was he just joshing, teasing? Seems so!) and a 22 year old at the Mall. So, that’s 6 women; 40 years ago. No harm no foul! Nothing illegal! Nothing immoral, in my book!
    (2) Now the 22 year old says that in 1977 he pestered her so much for a date she reported it to management and she believes he was banned from the Mall. But all the others and many more tell stories of him being at the Mall “all the time” in 1977-1981. Some girls said he “scared” them when he looked at them, and they ran and hid, finding him creepy or icky. Others said they were “flattered” by his attention. One mother, of the 17 year told, told her daughter she was “the luckiest girl in the world” to be dating Moore and “he would make a good husband.”
    (3) The story of him being “banned” anywhere is contradicted by two managers of the Mall, a longtime police officer at Mall and all who saw him there from ’77-82. Even a woman police officer, Faye Gray, who now spreads vicious gossipy rumors about Moore concedes “no complaint” was ever filed against him. None! (I’ll rebut her more fully later, as I’ve done to some extent previously.)

    SO, WE’VE DISPOSED OF 6 CHARGES, THAT LEAVES 3.

    (4) A 28 year old says he grabbed her buttocks in 1991. Her story is implausible and ridiculous. Her mother was standing right in front of her and she neither told her nor anyone else for years, maybe decades.

    WE’VE DISPOSED OF 7 CHARGES, THAT LEAVES 2 SERIOUS CHARGES:

    (5) Now, we come to Beverly Reynolds who said in 1977 Moore grabbed her breasts when she was 16. Off with his head!!! The Monster!
    Her story about the Yearbook he signed and the night when it was freezing cold, @20 or 30 degrees outside, and she stood outside in “her shirt”, apparently, and got in a cold car, and within seconds was assaulted, “he lifted up my shirt”; she forget about her heavy jacket and/or sweater; “he grabbed my neck, pushed it down towards his crotch”, then “he shoved her or she fell out of the car”, scrapping her hands? No, did she have gloves on? She doesn’t say. Tears were running down her face, she says, then she luckily immediately was picked up by her boyfriend, who didn’t notice anything amiss, nor did she tell him anything nor tell anyone else for years or decades. Well, it’s implausible. Even if true, we don’t behead people for simple assault. We don’t punish anyone for 40 year old unproven allegations. We’re wary because of Salem Witch Trials, Duke Lacrosse case, Tawana Brawley, and Harper Lee’s epic novel “To Kill a Mockingbird.” Sometimes, psychiatrists tell us, folks confabulate.

    (6) Now, the hardest case of all: Leigh Corfman. Is she telling the truth? Exaggerating? Confabulating? Did she go to his house, take her own shirt and pants off, and he rejected her and drove her home? Was she 16 and not 14? All we know is she says (to the Wash. Post) that she told some friends (two or three? It’s not clear) that she was “seeing” or “dating” an “older man”; The Wash Post does not report (after thoroughly cross-examining her six times) that she told them Moore disrobed her. WaPo only reports that she “told her mother” the details “more than 10 years later” when Judge Moore became “prominent” (actually that would be 15 years later; he was appointed judge in late 1992 and ran for office in 1994.)

    (7) So, why do I have doubts? Leigh’s story dates back almost 39 years, to February 1979. She fibs a bit saying she was “seeing” an older man, when in a space of a few days, she only “saw” him twice. She was a young teen admittedly involved in alcohol, drugs, “boyfriends”, with psychological problems (an admitted suicide attempt at 16), whose parents were going through a bitter divorce with custody battles, etc. She said, with Moore, she expected “Wine and Roses”; a childish fantasy. Did she get assaulted, groped as she claims, or did she get rejected? Did she tell her friends she was “going to see” and “older man” and was left stranded on Alcott Road in Gadsden, Alabama, instead? With all she was going through, if Roy Moore rejected her, it might have been a final straw. Like Mayella Ewell, who lived in the sleepy Alabama town of Maycomb, of in To Kill a Mockingbird, who accused Tom Robinson of “rape” to cover her own shame and guilt of desiring an older man who rejected her, young Leigh of Gadsden might have falsely accused an older man who rejected her vowed to destroy him one day, the man who crushed her hopes, her dreams, her fantasies “of wine and roses.”
    (8) For Beverly and Leigh, it is at least as likely as not, that they are confabulating. And they may very well have convinced themselves after a decade or so, that there fibs, exaggerations, fabrications or confabulations are true! Their motive? I don’t know? Troubled teen years? Multiple divorces? They just hate men? Envy? Jealousy? Rejection? “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.”

    And on these old tattered thin threads, some would behead!

  36. I detect a sort of self – indulgence on the vigorous advocate’s part in wallowing , nay revelling in a high degree of lubricious , ahem , legal , analysis of notorious episodes alleging the avuncular interest of Judge Roy in young ladies whose brothers and fathers instinctively protect from people like Judge Roy Moore ; a much older and age inappropriate suitor whose behavior is generally characterized as lecherous in any decent village . We are brazenly informed in this titillating litany of licentious lapses by the lascivious lawyer that indeed he once propositioned a sixteen year old girl in front of her mother. This, it is suggested , is quite possibly a case where the perceptive judge was just kidding around . To hear this aside thrown in about the sixteen year old would not , as an isolated instance , evoke much concern. But to have it cited as some sort of tongue in cheek inside joke in defense of a man …. explicitly … accused of indiscretions in this realm simply makes one shudder .

  37. False on very count, John KIng; as if you’ve read none of my posts.
    Protect him from? A mother called her daughter “the luckiest girl in the world” to be dating Judge Moore. Six of the alleged “accusers” allege ZERO HARM! A seventh is a likely 28 year old fabricator. The 8th’s story is full of holes. And the 9th’s is a clear confabulation, which has changed over 15 years from when first told.

    Mothers loved to have their daughters date a West Point Grad, War Veteran (Vietnam), lawyer, bachelor. Did you read about Elizabeth Taylor?

    Roy Moore has a stellar reputation, not one complaint filed, admit his worst critics, during his entire life. (Except for the 22 year who alleges she told the Mall Manager he was pestering her, but two Mall Managers deny that. Never received a complaint, they say. The YMCA manager: Never received a complaint!!! The Police: Never received a complaint.

    Do you think in 1985 Kayla Kiser, a 24-year old beauty queen, would marry him if he had a bad reputation.

    I’ve read right through all the false, twisted stories in the New Yorker, Washington Post, New York Times, and heard the edited, rehearsed interviews on NBC, CNN etc, and in my humble opinion, these 40 year old stories are as phony as a three-dollar bill.

    Yes, I see them through both a “learned” counsel’s eye (thank you) and a scientist’s eye. I’ve defended others wrongfully accused. I know the game. I don’t fall for stale 40 year old stories, rumors and triple-hearsay.

    Thank you

  38. No , protect them , not protect *him . The fact that he propositioned a sixteen year old and that , as you noted , her mother uttered an emphatic ” No ” is alarming . If you really ” know the game ” then apparently you have not anything yet to learn about the game. I do know that forty years is no barrier to truth . I have an open mind as to whether or not he is or was an ogre with the Girl Scouts . To expect that you , having substituted sceptical subjective judgement for open mindedness about their claims and called it ” Science “, have really presented a compelling case to the jury in the judge’s defense , is really expecting too much . Your Welcome , btw .

    1. John, interesting how you select words: You write “he propositioned” a sixteen year old as “a fact.”
      What did he proposition her to do. The fact is her mother worked in the Photo Shop in the Mall. A few times the 16 year old was with her mother. In the presence of both, he asked the mother if he could take her daughter out on a date. Was he teasing? Joshing? If the mother said, Yes, would he have taken her out? Neither you nor I know the answer to those questions.

      Yet you state as a fact that he “propositioned” a sixteen year old. You know what that word connotes salaciousness.

      Yet the three 17, 18, 19 year olds he did date, say the most he did was “kiss them”. Read also the “testimony” of the Captain who served with Moore in Vietnam. (I’ve posted it below, I think.)

      As for science. There’s a scientific field called psychiatry; I’m familiar with it. When I was studying medicine, I had a 10-week summer fellowship in Community Psychiatry. It was a field I was interested in, and took other courses and rotations in it, but eventually switched from medicine to Public Health (where I did a lot of work in Environmental Science) and finally to law. (Where I did environmental law, administrative law and first amendment law.)

      But Psychiatrists know there’s such a thing as CONFABULATION.

      Beyond that, the recent evidence from the court, shows that Leigh Corfman was having psychiatric behavioral and disciplinary problems before she ever met Roy Moore. The court ordered her removed from her mother and placed with her father for 20 months because of those very problems. It’s stated in the court documents, both parents signed. The mother had lost control of her! After 16 months with her father, her “behaviors” improved, her mother petitioned to regain custody in May 1980, so the Court reinstated custody with her mother beginning in October 1980. (I’ve explained this below.)

      What does that tell us? It tells us she’s been fabricating her story, which essentially was since the alleged “incident” with Moore, her life took a tailspin; In fact, 12 days after she met Moore (2.21.79), she was in her father’s custody (in his house 20 miles from Gadsden) and she stayed there for 20 months; the Court found, held, and decided “as a matter of fact” based on all the evidence that her behavior had improved. Not deteriorated as she’d told the Washington Post and everyone in America. In fact the Post knew this! They too deceived the American people. Jeff Bezos’s paper deliberately , maliciously deceived the American people, in my opinion.

      You can accept 40 year old stories as “fact”; the reason the Law does not is because learned men and women (lawyers, psychiatrists, philosophers, parents, politicians) got together and created Laws to govern us. And they said in Alabama like they said in almost every state, if you are 14 and alleging that someone over 19 sexually assaulted you, or groped you, you have 3 years to bring a criminal complaint and 7 years (by age 21) to bring a civil suit.
      That’s a fact.

      Now you want to throw stones at someone based on unproven and likely unprovable stories that are full of holes, distortions, fabrications and out-right contradictions.

      We all have witnessed what the Massachusetts Courts and Press did with the Probation Officers, the Veterans who ran the South Boston St. Patrick’s Day Parade, and what other courts and media did in the Duke LaCrosse Case, and the Tawana Brawley case, etc, etc. In those cases, the facts, science and law was twisted to publicly condemn, indict, prosecute and impugn the character of good people . . . .
      and these were cases with contemporary evidence, not 40 year old evidence.

      And when I was practicing law, I’ saw personally in the Environment Areas, where I specialized, Courts and Lawyers twisting facts and deceiving, and stipulating to facts then arguing against stipulated facts in courtrooms, and judges being handed the stipulated facts and ignoring them, and ignoring controlling case law, and newspapers ignoring facts, science and law . . . Yes, I’ve played the game, and I’ve seen it all, and I know how vicious the press and mob mentality can be.

      I was co-counsel on one case that we won a unanimous decision at the United States Supreme Court after 16 Massachusetts judges (including judges on the States Supreme Judicial Court, Appeals Court, Trial Courts, and Administrative Law judges) had all decided against us (all but one; one judge of integrity in all of Massachusetts).

      And do you know what a unanimous US Supreme Court wrote in its 9-0 decision? It wrote, “The Massachusetts judiciary acted without lawful authority.”

      Imagine an entire State’s judicial system had acted without lawful authority for over three years. And guess who fully supported this unlawfully acting judiciary? The Boston Globe and almost every newspaper, media outlet, politician, law office and legal academic in Massachusetts, including the Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts. They all conspired to crush a handful of Veterans constitutional rights. And they twisted Law, Fact, and Reason to do so.

      So, I look hard when the leftist Media, politicians, try to gang-bang a West Point grad, Vietnam Veteran, with traditional Christian values. Very hard! And I’m skeptical because I know how they skewer and crucify innocent folks. And before passing judgement, I wait until all the “facts” are in, and “both sides” have a “fair chance” of presenting their versions of events.

      It took over three years before one court, 9 justices of the US Supreme Court, finally understood the true “facts” and “law” of our case.

      It took nearly two years, as I recall, before the Duke Lacrosse players were exonerated.

      It took nearly three years, I think, before the Massachusetts Probation Officers were exonerated.

      Yet, you are willing to condemn a man in two week based on 40 year old allegations of two very troubled teens.

      I guess you’d want to stone 16 year old Elizabeth Taylor for dating a 24 year old West Point grad NFL player; or for being engaged to a 28 year old man at 17; or for “seeing” 40 year old Howard Hughes at 17-18 (he propositioned her, I mean proposed marriage); how about stoning Elizabeth Taylor for marrying a 40 year old man at 18; or for being divorced at 19, then marrying another 40 year old at 20. (Or would you just want to stone the men: William Pawley, Conrad Hilton Jr., Howard Hughes, etc.

      Did you know the median age for marriage in 1960 was 20 years old? (Today it’s over 26.) Did you know that in 1970 in was still less that 21. When do you think they started courting? Do you think one percent or five percent actually married men 15 years or older. You know about Elvis? And, what’s his name, Jerry Steinfeld? Would you stone them to death, too?

      How about stoning to death all those men 30 and over who took a 16, 17 or 18 year old out to lunch or dinner in the 1970s, when the drinking age was 18. Like a boss or friend of the family or just a good decent ordinary man, who publicly asked her mother, and kissed her once or twice. Nothing more; nothing less!

      How about stoning to death everyone who looked at the Playboy Models who were centerfolds at 16 (one) 17 (three plus nine more appeared) and 18 year-olds (many.)

      Conversely, now, how about stoning to death everyone who has falsely accused another, but only if corroborated by documentary evidence (court decrees) or scientific evidence (DNA, fingerprint, psychiatric expert testimony ) or eyewitness corroboration?

      Roy Moore has lived 70 years. A 14 year old and 16 year old allege he did something criminal 40 years ago. He denies it. Their stories have gaping holes in them based on past histories, psychological profiles, inconsistencies, and on hardcore documentary evidence: (Court Records which contradict much of Leigh Corfman’s story; and an apparently forged yearbook which contradicts Beverly Nelson’s story, in part.) Contradictions create doubt!

      1. Nope … Have no desire to ” gangbang ” or be party to such as concerns the judge . Does ” proposition ” connote salacious intent as you suggest ? Could a less semantically suggestive word such as tease or josh have been employed to describe this perfectly harmless overture ? Well , was it harmless ? .

        Irritating to have you pontificating to me , who has always been sceptical when it comes to the machinations of the FBI , and who has pointed out numerous illogical and purely fabricated features of the James Bulger … Epic . I doubt not your iconoclasm , wit , or legal acumen . Spare me the character assassination of placing all who would simply like a full and honest hearing of the facts , a reconciliation of a preponderance of witnesses and accounts with the denial by the Judge , and the Truth to out , with those who want to ” gangbang ” the good judge . Leigh Corfmann is not attempting to sponsor a gay float in our beloved St. Patrick’s Day parade. It is a self- aggrandizing and ill drawn comparison.

        Basically , Counselor , you view Corfmann as a sort of hitman doing a number on Ray Moore ; confabulating after a span of forty years. Here is the difference , after forty years : Leigh Corfmann , aside from what documentary evidence can be produced , has to trust that a jury or a public will offer some benefit of doubt. Unlike the Hitman , there is no hard forensic evidence that only the hitter would know . This does not change after forty years. It is a different caliber of experience . Yes, Corfmann may be … Confabulating … unintentionally giving an inaccurate account based on memory. But at this point it seems more likely that you are simply … Gaslighting … her . You would have us believe she is crazy. And yet , the stridency of your denunciation of her , the emotionalism of phraseology that has the Judge as the victim of a gangbang , and an overall tone of condescension that anyone could … Possibly … believe Corfmann , indicates to me that you know she is not crazy . Methinks the Counselor doth protest too much .

  39. RAM DASS:
    ‘JUST WALKING EACH OTHER HOME.’

    DAVID: Because you’ve been such an influence on a whole generation, I asked other writers what questions I should ask you in this interview. The one I’ve chosen is from Tom Stella, who was a Catholic priest for many years and now is an author and teacher of spirituality from his base in Colorado. Tom said, “Ask him about the line that I’ve repeated—and I’m sure lots of others have as well. Ram Dass says, ‘We’re all just walking each other home.’ Ask him to talk about that line.’”

    When reading your new book, Tom’s question jumped out at me because one of the first sub-chapters is called “The Road Home.” So, please, talk about what you mean in this metaphor.

    RAM DASS: Well, “home” is the one. It’s God. When I went into psychedelics, I had an experience where I felt everything being stripped away from my self. I was in my heart, my spiritual heart. All I could say was: “I’m home. I’m home. I’m home inside.”

    Then, when I went to India, my guru looked at me with unconditional love. And I remember that as: “I’m home. I’m home. I’m home.”

    We all spend so much time living in this outer world, then we encounter things that force us into our inner world. The inner world is what I consider to be home.

    In “walking each other home,” I’m talking about how we as individuals—individual persons or individual countries with all of the separation that we experience—through moving toward inner consciousness, can become one. That’s a shift in consciousness. If we can find a way to walk each other home, we could reach a point where there is no more conflict between egos and nations.

    https://www.umojacorporation.org/our-approach/restorative-justice/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5rbzqtjV1wIVmIqzCh1rcQ2yEAAYASAAEgKYLPD_BwE

    Restorative Justice
    Transforming high schools is as much about culture and climate as it is about curriculum. Two things are clear — if schools are going to increase academic achievement, we must reduce conflict to keep students in the classroom and retain quality teachers.

    Umoja’s Restorative Justice (RJ) model creates the conditions for both students and adults to successfully reach their academic goals by restoring conflicts and reducing disciplinary infractions. Through RJ, students learn critical social, emotional, and behavioral skills and teachers are better positioned to deliver high quality instruction.

    “Instead of just getting suspended or getting punished, we work to figure out why this conflict is happening, which keeps students from getting in the same sort of issues. When students work out their issues, they don’t get in fights, they don’t get suspended, and they don’t miss school.”
    Starnica Rodgers,
    Manley student
    RESEARCH AND IMPACT
    Restorative justice programs and practices have been shown in multiple schools and districts nationally to reduce suspensions and violence (Dignity in Schools, 2012). Keeping students in school matters:

    Students who are suspended even once are more likely to drop out of school (Medill Reports Chicago, 2011).
    Young people who drop out of high school, many of whom have been on a path of suspensions prior to leaving school, are more than eight times as likely to be incarcerated as those who graduate (Advancement Project, 2010).
    A 1% increase in high school graduation rates saves approximately $1.4 billion in costs associated with incarceration (Lochner & Moretti, 2003).
    Through implementation of Umoja’s RJ model out-of-school suspensions across our 4 RJ partner schools decreased an average of 11% and higher level infractions decreased, ranging from 7% to 70% decreases

    WHAT RESTORATIVE JUSTICE LOOKS LIKE
    Umoja focuses on the school as a strategic arena for the prevention, intervention and interruption of community conflict and violence. Reducing suspensions and disciplinary infractions keeps students in school where we have the opportunity to teach skills, influence positive choices and prevent issues that may otherwise turn into a vicious cycle of harm and retaliation. Umoja utilizes a whole school Restorative Justice model, which includes:

    Strategic planning with Administrators and school leaders on restorative justice, discipline and behavior systems
    A Peace Room which serves as a hub for restorative practices and interventions including: Peace Circles, Mediations, Restorative Chats & Re-entry Circles
    A disciplinary intervention curriculum which teaches critical social-emotional & leadership skills
    Professional development for teachers and school staff
    Read the story of just one student’s transformation due to RJ at his school.

    Watch
    Documentaries produced by students during Community Builders
    Read
    more about Umoja’s RJ program and why it matters

  40. Wa-llahi! The Mueller probe is getting closer to Glorious Leader everyday. Huff Post reports that Flynn has rolled on Trump. We”ll be seeing some action by x-mass . In the few last days Hillary Clinton has been calling for a do-over of the 2016 election. Her thought is that Russian interference destroyed the integrity of the 2016 US election process, therefore, a new election is in order. If the 25th amendment is used to get Trump out, the Republicans retain the WH. Impeachment also would leave the WH in Republican hands. Nope, the Clintons are right, a whole new national election is needed.

  41. Like most liberal MSM operations, the Washington Post is again proven to be completely corrupt:

    Remember it’s story about February 21, 1979, at the Gadsden Courthouse, and the custody case. Here’s what the Post didn’t tell you:

    According to multiple sources:

    (1) The Washington Post failed to tell readers that at that February 21, 1979, court case Leigh Corfman’s mother, Mrs. Wells, in a jointly signed petition with her ex-husband, Robert Corfman, voluntarily gave up custody of Leigh to her father, who lived 20 miles away. Leigh’s parents had been divorced since 1974. “The custody case was amicable and involved a joint petition by both parents.”

    Worse, the Post also did not tell readers that 14-year-old Leigh Corfman was to move to her father’s house starting on March 4, 1979. (Feb 21 was a Wednesday, March 4 Sunday.)

    Questions arise. Since her father lived in Ohatchee, 20 miles away from Gadsden, and would stay there until October 1980, did she change schools; did she voluntarily go there before March 4?

    (2) But the story gets worse: Remember how the Washing Post said Leigh consistently told the same story during all six comprehensive interviews, AND the Post said its research was exhaustive. Remember, how the Post reported that after the incident with Moore her life turned bad, to alcohol, drugs, boyfriends and a suicide attempt at 16. Well, here’s the real truth, which the Post knew and was easily ascertained by (1) looking at the documents it retrieved from the Gadsden Court House and (2) doing a bit more research (doing due diligence, the law calls it.)

    The Court Order said the reason the mother lost custody was because Leigh was already suffering from “behavioral and discipline problems.” Therefore, before ever meeting Roy Moore, she was a documented teen menace, a troubled child or trouble-maker, out of control.

    (3) But the Washington Post and she said things worsened after she met Moore. There’s another court document, written 15 months later, however, that says her behavioral and disciplinary problems had decreased so substantially (under her father’s care) that the Court decided she may resume living with her mother in October 1980. In other words, the mother regains custody because Leigh is now behaving, is no longer having disciplinary problems, is improving, not deteriorating as she told the WaPo and as the WaPo told us. The Court in May 1980 allowed maternal custody to resume in October 1980 .(Presumably neither the father nor school nor anyone else reported “worsening” behavioral problems between May and October, or the Court may have rescinded or revised the order.)

    3. Did Leigh, Wells and WaPo collude to defame? Funny the WaPo couldn’t find this second court document, isn’t it? Funny it didn’t report the “facts” about the first court document. Funny it spun and covered everything up that contradicted its preconceived notions. No not funny! Gross negligence, hardly; much more like intentional defamation. The WaPo has lost all credibility.

    4. Finally, the original Court Order granting custody to the father said the mother could have “visitation rights” every second weekend. If that went into effect immediately, the first weekend would’ve been March 17-18, 1979, far beyond any time frames the Post was reporting.

    Now I ask you? I the Court just gave you limited visitation rights, would you risk losing those visitation rights between Februry 21 and March 4, by allowing your 14 year old daughter to go out at night, on her own? If she said she was going to a friend’s house wouldn’t you check, call, drop her off, pick her up?

    The bottom line here is the Washington Post deliberately concealed, fabricated and distorted the facts in this case. So, too, apparently, did Leigh Corfman and her mother!

    5. Here’s some original quotes from the Washington Post:eported:

    “After talking to her friends, Corfman says, she began to feel that she had done something wrong and kept it a secret for years.” Kept it a secret for about 12-15 years when Roy Moore was becoming “prominent” as a judge. She apparently only told her friends she was “seeing an older man”, and one said she mentioned Roy Moore. She apparently did not tell them she’d been disrobed and groped, although one recalls “as a teenager” she mentioned seeing his “tight white underpants.” Did she?

    The Washington Post reported:
    “I felt responsible,” she says. “I felt like I had done something bad. And it kind of set the course for me doing other things that were bad.” She says that her teenage life became increasingly reckless with drinking, drugs, boyfriends, and a suicide attempt when she was 16.”

    The Court Documents say the opposite.

    Of course, it may be true that after returning to the custody of her mother, Mrs. Wells, who got remarried sometime along the road in the early 1980s, her behavioral problems returned. But if they did, we can safely conclude that it nothing to do with Roy Moore, because 20 months under her father’s care, her behavior returned to normalcy. From juvenile delinquency, from “behavioral and disciplinary” problems that both parents attested to in court and the court found she was experiencing before she ever met Roy Moore, she had cleaned up her act sufficiently that the Court returned her to the custody of her mother in October 1980.

    And you didn’t read that in the Washington Post, did you?

  42. P. S.
    Leigh Corfman says she first met Roy Moore at the Courthouse on February 21. He called her “a few days later” that would be Friday or Saturday: He didn’t pick her up on Friday: there was light drizzle and light rain from 4:00 P.M. onward; Saturday night it rained for an hour, does she remember that? Couldn’t have picked her up Sunday night (it’s snowing, ice pellets, freezing rain); can’t pick her up Monday either, when the wind chill drops to 31F by 11 P.M.
    So, when were the first and second “dates” and when was the final phone call? The WaPo says the first call came “a few day later” after 2/21; they agreed where and when to meet; “soon after”, there’s a second call and a second meeting arranged; sometime “later” there’s a third and final call.
    After either the first or second meeting (alleged “date”) she tells her friends about “seeing an older man.”?
    So eliminating the day she went to her father’s and probably one, two or three nights before (not time for a second date and sometime later a third/final phone call) and considering 3 or 4 days of bad weather, or at least weather one might recall and note: “For example, I remember it was raining, sleeting, or freezing cold when he picked me and or dropped me off”) that leaves about five days to get two dates, three phone calls and time to tell her high school friends she was “seeing someone.” It’s possible. It’s also possible it didn’t happen.

    If you were on a jury, would you have reasonable doubts?

    After reading both this post and the post above (and all my posts), do you have any doubts? Remember, 12 Angry Men, at first only one man doubted.

    Or would you agree with the Queen of Hearts, “Off with his head”?

  43. Yellowhammernews is a conservative Alabama website covering politics, sports, breaking news, business, etc.

    The day after Thanksgiving it published an “Open Letter” from an officer who served with Roy Moore in Vietnam. It contains a very “telling” anecdote.

    http://yellowhammernews.com/featured/roy-moores-war-buddy-knew-altogether-honorable-decent-respectable-patriotic-commander-soldier/

    As of this morning, the Washington Post still has not mentioned it! Rarely do the Post, New Yorker, NBC, CNN, Boston Globe mention exculpating information about anyone they choose to crucify.

    1. But isn’t a 40+ year old story unreliable? In the heat of battle lots could be confabulated. After all, a war zone is a most stressful place. I doesn’t have he casual and quite ambiance of say, a shopping mall.

  44. At the “shopping mall”, the most he did was pester a 22 year old by repeatedly asking her out on dates. All the other “rumors” have been refuted. He was never barred from the Mall or YMCA, according to several managers of both places. I’ve posted all this before in detail, especially in my refutations of Faye Gray and the maliciously deceptive New Yorker. (Remember ever New York Times conceded some women were “flattered” and some were turned off by his spiel. Never forget the mother who told her daughter, “I’d say you were the luckiest girl in the world to dating Roy Moore.” Her daughter at 17 actually went out with him several times and described him as a perfect gentleman.

    You know these 14 year old girls describing being afraid to look to Moore’s eyes at the Mall and running and hiding, because he was “icky” and “creepy”, kind of reminds me of how the three little kids in Maycomb Alabama fled from Boo Radley in “To Kill a Mockingbird.” Of course, the 6 foot West Point Grad Vietnam War Veteran who stared at them like a Drill Instructor probably scared the bejesus out of the immature ones. A friend of mine reminded me of how the teen groupies squealed when a Rock Star walked downtown. Well, for a small town like Gadsden, Roy Moore, Class President, West Point, boxer, athlete, War Veteran, Lawyer, might have made some of those younguns squeal, too. He was that town’s Rock Star. And some liked him and some were jealous, envious, repulsed, found him too old and “icky”, some were indifferent, and some thought “he’d make a good husband” and their daughters dating him were”the luckiest girls in the world.”

    2. But, I don’t want to end this weekend on an argumentative note.

    Please re-read that Captain’s assessment of Roy Moore’s character when he was in Vietnam. (That’s one adult man, an officer, assessing another officer’s character during a tour of duty in Vietnam; not the hysterics of teens touring a modern American Mall (or working there) with too much time on their hands and nothing better to do than gossip, giggle and sprout gibberish . . . the immature teens, I mean, as many immature adults oftentimes do too. Tongues will wag . . .

    3. Then to end on an Upbeat, Positive Note, please consider this:

    Here are two heartfelt, heart-warming messages of THANKSGIVING, from two men (Ben Stein and Bernard Darty) who obviously are blessed with the spiritual gifts of GRATITUDE and MAGNANIMITY:

    Ben Stein: https://spectator.org/my-thanksgiving-list/

    Bernard Darty: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/25/holocaust-survivor-im-giving-1-million-to-help-wounded-american-veterans-to-express-my-thanks.html

    But glad you read the article by

    1. I hate to sound brash or uncouth, but a whorehouse in Nam during those years might be the last place on earth I would zip down my fly. I have seen the films and pictures of men’s cranks with something between tartar sauce and a banana daiquiri dripping from it. His discretion was one of a man that knows where NOT to dip his jumbo. My apologies to those on here with growing grimaces as they read this.

      This is not an assault on Roy but rather a rebuttal of the good Captains appraisal of his character based on a wise decision. And through all this, the odor in the brothel, a factor in some people’s decision to remain within the door jams of those kinds of places, was never discussed.

      1. Ever hear of condoms? I guess the other officers and American military personnel who staid there did not find it odiferous. They stayed! The officer who drove them there stayed and said he’d get a ride back to base with others.

        How do you know it stunk? You say the odor wasn’t mentioned. The temperature wasn’t mentioned either. The color of the walls wasn’t mentioned. The fragrance, incense, opium, wasn’t mentioned either. So, what?

        His fellow officer who was there is giving first hand testimony of Roy Moore walking away from readily available temptation, while other officers stayed and indulged. Both he and I find it very telling. His fellow officer said he was with Moore for 4 months in Danang and attests to his strong moral character.

        Your rebutal is based on pure speculation.

          1. Resorting to ad hominem attacks is usually the last resort of someone who has lost a debate. The truth hurts, doesn’t it.

        1. “Ever hear of condoms?”

          Yes. I have several friends that live in them in Fairfax.

          Ignore the pathetic comment. It was premature.

  45. I think that you may be in love with this guy . Not that there is anything wrong with that !

    ” Roy Moore, Class President , West Point , Boxer , Athlete, War Veteran , Lawyer , may have made some of those younguns squeal too. ”

    Are they squealing on Judge Roy Moore forty years later ? YIKES !

    1. Wa-llahi! According to Lucian Truscot (Huff Post)who went to the Point with Moore, said, he was a complete asshole. Truscot went on to say that Moore was despised as a martinet by the men in the MP company he bossed in VN. You should add those pertinent facts to your list, Bill.

      1. John andd Khalid,

        I’ve read the views of some at West Point; others admired him and said so in writing. It’s in his yearbook. I’ll quote it later. In high school he was voted “class president” and “most likely to succeed”.

        In Vietnam he was a real disciplinarian; he set up a boxing ring; any NCOs or grunts who had a beef with him could meet him in the ring. I’ve read many did. I’ve read he won every fight.
        I’ve read he was a “hard ass”; they called him, “Captain America”; he was strict, by the book . . . like I said, a Drill Instructor type, a Disciplinarian. He did not fraternize with the men. He knew some hated him. He didn’t care. He was Captain in the Military Police. Discipline came first. He thought he might be “fragged”. He never was. They fragged “real assholes.”

        Perhaps, some would like to frag me for defending Moore. Perhaps I’m too thin skinned or too hard nosed. But I believe what I believe and say it! My little sister reminded me when we were teenagers and someone confronted me, accused me of something, she liked how I’d always say, “So what?”

        I will not leave out of this discussion of Roy Moore, what happened to Donald Trump, Bill Bulger, Ray Donovan, the South Boston Parade Sponsors, Bob Quinn, Ed King, the Duke Lacrosse players or anyone else maliciously smeared by the leftist Media whose specialty is character assassination. The Press fabricates!!! I know how they twist and spin and distort and conceal facts. They’ve done it before, are doing it now, and will do it again. It’s their stock in trade. People shouldn’t forget that! There are people who think as highly of Roy Moore in Alabama as there are around here who esteem Bill Bulger.

        2. I haven’t used any deprecating allusions against anyone, other than to say they are not honestly telling the facts or not honestly considering the facts.

        3. Please do not exaggerate! I am not throwing stones at Leigh Corfman. I am saying she’s fabricating and likely confabulating.

        Exhibit 1: For two weeks now she and Wash Post have spun a story that since her encounter with Judge Moore, her life has spun out of control. Neither she nor the Post told us that prior to meeting Judge Moore she was already experiencing such significant “behavioral and disciplinary” problems that the Court ordered that within 12 days she be removed from her mother and placed with her father. For 20 months she stayed with her father. (When was that reported?) Then when the Court adjudicated that her behavior had “improved” (not deteriorated) she was returned to her mother. (Those facts have been concealed from the Public.

        I could go on: The fact that these “facts” were left out of her and the Post’s story, leads a reasonable person to ask, what other facts did she fabricate?

        (2) Beverly Nelson’s case: A. She shows a yearbook that looks, in part, like a forgery. It’s clear to anyone with eyes to see! (Two different inks, different numbers, the letters “D.A.” appear after Moore’s name, obviously copied from Moore’s decree in 1999 granting Nelson a divorce. Moore’s secretary who stamped his was Delbert Adams.). (B.) She says she was waiting outside for her boyfriend “a week or two later” when the Restaurant closed at 10:00 P.M. She said it was “cold”; how cold? On those days (excluding Christmas Eve and Christmas; she’d remember if it were those nights) historical records show that all days but one the temp was between the 20Fs and low 30s. Freezing cold!! It was the coldest winter in Birmingham Alabama history. (One night it was 44F; seasonable); Jan. 5 (exactly two weeks later, it was also seasonable) So, if it was “cold” as she said, it was freezing cold. Did she have a hat, coat, sweater, gloves on? Likely. But she only mentioned a “shirt”? (C) More contradictory evidence came forward: Other waitresses who worked the Olde Hickory House said it never closed at 10:00 P.M., it closed at 12:00 P.M. or 11:00 P.M.; a factory next door closed at 10:00 and workers always came in for a late meal; they also said that the dumpsters were at the side of the building, not the back, and there was a rap-around-porch with lights on sides. The place was always brightly lit. So there was no “dark space” in back between the dumpster and back door to park a car as she alleged. Too many holes in her story, too.

        (D) The three girls he dated say he “kissed” them: That’s all!

        Is there any more “evidence” you want to execute the man with?

        3. I’ve given you facts. I can’t force you to look at the facts. You give me back, “He propositioned a 16 year old”! Wrong! He asked the 16 year old’s mother if he could date her daughter, when both were standing there; she said No. Was he kidding, joshing, teasing? You don’t know and I don’t know.

        4. He chatted up tons of people; he was class president, a politician, a talkative lawyer, who his partner said was great in trial court, examining and cross-examining witnesses, great oral argument, a great talker. He chatted people up. So what?

        1. Fair enough . Your guy is a schmoozer . A larger than life figure in a small Southern town who attracted a lot of attention , and was easy in returning those attentions not in a cavalier , but nay more in a enthusiastic and disarmingly charming way . He seems , you acknowledge , to have had an eye for ladies of legal age , newly minted . Well there is nothing wrong in any of that . Yet, more than one woman has stepped forward , with no apparent rehearsal , or orchestration , but a desire apparently to seize the main chance , Post-Weinstein , Post -Spacey , and tell the Culture : This guy . He really isn’t such a nice guy !

          1. That’s true, but are thousands who know him now and knew him them, women of all ages, who say he is an honorable and good guy. A devout Christian.

            The problem that irks me is Trump got the same treatment: The New York Times spun the stories of 5 women and 4 of them said, “that’s not what I said.” One women on an airplane admitted they’d been smooching, but she said she complained when he allegedly put his hand on her leg … ten or twenty years earlier. They said he walked in on teen girls undressing in a Ms. Teen America Contest!!! Painting him a deviant, creep, predator. The audiotape . . . two guys talking in private . . . and one states a fact: “when you’re a celebrity they LET YOU grab em by the pussy.” And what were the headlines the next day: Trump admits sexual assault. If groupies LET celebrities grope them, it’s not assault.

            I hear these 40 year old stories, and I say: Show me the evidence. Don’t tell me stories, triple hearsay. Documentary evidence. Did you file a complaint. Well I was only 16? You had till 21 to file a civil complaint. I especially can’t give any credence, when glaring inconsistencies start popping up. “He’s banned at the Mall.” “Two former managers and one former cop say that never happened.” “I heard rumors he was banned at the Mall.” But he was always there. “In 1977 I complained and that led to him being banned at the Mall.” But all the other Mall stories are about 1977-1981. And then the retired cop? Faye Gray: We heard rumors we had to watch him, keep him away from cheerleaders. In the 37 years you were a cop, did anyone file a complaint? No! How about anyone file a civil complaint about harrassment? Ever see one of those, Faye Gray? Well, no! But I heard rumors!

            Well I remember hearing rumors all my life and when I checked some of them out, some were true, some half-baked and some total falsehoods. Rumors don’t amount to much.

            I don’t care who or what the Washington Post or New Yorker or other liberal rags drag up: They and others have proven to have deliberately witheld relevant and exculpating evidence from us, the American people, the people of Alabama, and allowed deliberately false stories, which they knew to be false, to be continuously spun. For example: “How my life deteriorated after meeting Roy Moore!” by Leigh and her mother.

            And I won’t repeat my rant about my contemporaries who dated college girls when we were in our 30s and the drinking age in the 1970s was 18. Sometimes we forget laws, customs and mores change. Alabama in 1970s isn’t the US in 2017.

            We all agree it’s wrong for anyone to assault anyone and especially wrong for anyone over 19 to try to seduce or grope someone as young as 14. The law has pity on the 16 year old who falls for the 14 year old.

            At 16 the brain is not mature enough to consent to sex. It’s not mature enough to sign contracts. I’m an old fashioned fuddy-dud. I’d raise the age of consent to 18.

    2. Forty years later they just voted him senatorial candidate and several times voted him in as a judge. The answer is Yes. Thousands still admire him!

  46. It’s easy to insult people!

    Moore was a hero, in his town, and many mothers and teens recognized it then, 40 years ago, and many still do. “Luckiest girl in the world to date him . . . would make a great husband.” Many “flattered” to talk to him. Of course, there’s always folks who like to tear people down. Many admired and respected him them. Many still do. They liked him so much, they voted him a judge in 1994 and several times thereafter, and may make him Alabama’s next Senator.

    Some people “love” the Clintons. .

    What was done to Roy Moore by the Media and bearers of false witness in Gadsden Alabama reminds me of what the Boston Globe and Massachusetts Media and many politicians tried to do to the Honorable William F. Bulger in Massachusetts. Those who knew and loved Mr. Bulger saw through the lies.

    Like I said, it’s easy to cast stones! You’ve illustrated the point.

      1. I could one-thousand: Read the New York Times, Washington Post, and every liberal rag in the country that endorsed Hillary last year (99% of MSM did) and all who supported and still do support Bill Clinton . . . in writing!

  47. “The last thing we need in Alabama and the U.S. Senate is a Schumer/Pelosi puppet who is WEAK on Crime, WEAK on the Border, Bad for our Military and our great Vets, Bad for our 2nd Amendment, AND WANTS TO RAISES TAXES TO THE SKY. Jones would be a disaster!” Trump tweeted, a de facto endorsement of Judge Roy Moore. I support Roy Moore, too.

    You know who else was accused of a high crimes, had his name dragged through the Media’s mud for a few years, then indicted and tried by a jury? Ray Donovan. In less than 30 minutes, the jury came back and acquitted him. Then Ray Donovan asked, “Where do I go to get my reputation back?”

    You know who else continues to drag many honorable men’s names through the mud? Howie Carr! They have a word for those who delight in others’ suffering: Schadenfreude. They have a word for folks like Carr: Muckrakers!

    Remember Iago’s words (Othello): “He who steals my purse steals nothing . . .But he that filches from me my good name robs me of that which not enriches him, and makes me poor indeed.”
    And how they mocked, scorned Shylock, and “laughed at his losses” out of prejudice(pre-judgement.) And Shylock said, “The villainy you teach me, I will executed, and it shall go harsh, but I will better the instruction.” As revenge he sought his “pound of flesh” but was outwitted by Portia who said take his flesh, as bargained, but “not one drop of blood.”

    Today, the Press seeks to excoriate and take flesh and blood, without recourse, without trial, without hesitancy, without mercy!

  48. You are too eager to be insulted in this case . You have placed Leigh Corfman in a Baghdad stadium , like a Taliban Mullah , on a holiday Sunday , and have done nothing except stone her to death . Leave Billy Bulger out of this . Stop insulting intelligence supposing that you can smother all the fire of accusations made by these women against the Judge . People, based on incidents concerning ….. let’s be kind .. flirtatious hero worship by your lights .. of the Judge by minor women … get a little curious . Their eyebrows go up . Despite all your Southern Gothic Faulknerian brush strokes portraying Judge Ray Moore as the Rhett Butler on the Gadsen canvas , people intuitively recognize that the situation requires … a chaperone . I have an open mind as to Moore and to Corfman . Boo Radley had better manners , at the least , than Judge Roy Moore .

  49. Khalid , I reserve my opinion until the matter is completely ventilated . He has many good qualities, but his hagiography is … premature.

    1. It will be resolved.

      Bill, I really like you, but you refute hearsay with hearsay. Like I said long ago, you can’t roller skate in a buffalo herd. (Roger Miller stole my line.)

      On Wednesday I called my oldest brother and caught him on the golf course (11th ACR, Vietnam 1967-68-69). Like me, born in Roxbury, but he was a white collar in Birmingham, Alabama for 25 years. As a typical Bostonian guttersnipe-made-good type of guy he got to know a lot of people. I asked him about Moore. He said, “I got to meet him several times and know a number of his friends. Excellent guy. Might have had a roaming eye when he was younger, probably not as bad as some people say.”

      And that is where I stand right now on the man. Why you are going to the mat for the guy is your business. To me there is a lot to be decided and it will be on solid evidence. Not opinion. What people say about him in West Point or Vietnam or in a shopping mall is opinion. Someone mentioned Hitler. He had a bunch of close friends that thought the world of him. A few million others…..not so much.

      And you are not pathetic. I take that back. But please don’t say I compared Roy Moore to Hitler. OK?

      1. Abe, I like your posts, John’s and all who agree and disagree with me. But documentary evidence is not “hearsay.”
        We have “accusers” from 40 years ago, but no eyewitnesses.
        We have rumors galore, but also contradictory statements: some were “flattered”; some “annoyed”; some say he was barred from the Mall; others say he wasn’t. The cop, Faye Gray, worked there 37 years and heard “rumors” but not one complaint, civil or criminal, was filed, she says.

  50. Abe , Parsing opinion vs. judgement based on solid evidence is generally instructive. Here , it is a distinction that underscores the difficulty of producing the ” solid evidence ” of an alleged sexual assault on a minor that happened almost a half-century ago . The minor at the time , Leigh Corfman , says something happened . The Judge says it did not happen . Indeed the Judge may be CONFABULATING . He may be , unintentionally , putting a civilizing gloss on memory of what may actually have been as seamy an event as Corfman alleged . We do not know at present. In my opinion .

  51. Moore is a distraction. Trump is the real game. Glorious Leader is wilting under the scrutiny of Mr. Mueller. He’d do anything to take the critical spotlight off himself. That’s why he’s feeding the Moore controversy. Even Trump knows he’s going down. For him, the question is when, and, how much can he, his family, and, his cronies, can steal, before, his day of reckoning dawns. Perhaps, some enlightened day, the name Trump will carry the same connotation as Quisling. Move over Benedict Arnold. There’s a new traitor in town.

  52. True enough! There may be a number of confabulations going on! You know the psychiatric process called “repression.” I know I’ve forgotten some things I’d rather forget.

    The bigger point, though, when all this is decided, if it can be decided, is what the Washington Post deliberately concealed from the American people: that young Leigh had problems before she met Moore; that within two weeks custody was transferred to her father; that after 15 months with her father (20 miles away) he behavior/disciplinary problems improved; and that 18 months after being with her father, her behavior improved so much that the Court ordered her to return to the custody of her mother.

    Why did the Washington Post deliberately withhold exculpatory evidence from the American people, and allow Leigh, her mother and others to continuously and publicly spin a false story.

    One final thought: Just a question: She returned to her mother ‘s custody at @ 16. Was it at 16 or 17 that she had an encounter with “an older man”?

    CONFOUNDED CONFABULATIONS? Was it after her return home to the custody of her mother in October 1980, that she deteriorated and attempted suicide? I could carry out the speculations on the other side of this coin . . . this ever flipping coin in key of life as the worm turns!

  53. Why We Write

    by Billy C.

    You know the story of the Budhist water carrier/stone cutter who reached Nirvana? They asked him what he did after achieving perfect consciousness. He said, “I cut stones and carry water.”

    Now here’s the rest of that story:

    China’s Sunway TaihuLight computer is fastest in the world “with 93 petaflops, (9 x 10 to 16th power, 1016) “that figure is the equivalent of 33,860 trillion calculations per second.” (3 x 10 to 13th power) So, in this instance, calculations per second would be one-thousandth the petaflops (FLOP is a “float point operation” or calculation or “information”, hertz is a cycle, speed per second. But let’s not quibble. We’re talking fast.

    These computers are calculating at a speed close to the human brain’s processing power. (Far less than the human body’s). It’s predicted the first quantum computers will be one million times faster, 10 to 19th or 10 to the 20th power. And Scientific America, this month, said a new 300 Qbit quantum computer may achieve speeds of 10 to the 80th power, “more calculations per second than all the atoms in the observable universe.”

    Now, remember Isaac Azimov’s great short story about a computer as large as our solar system? Ages hence, when all the stars burn out, when all atoms and subatomic particles dissipate and dissolve, the universe is cast into total darkness. But that computer churns away, and tries to answer “The Final Question” humans put to it, which was “How will the Universe end?” and after a few billion more years as it computes and continuously repairs itself, grows, learns, morphs, suddenly a thought, maybe an answer comes to it. It dwells on the thought for a few billion more years; it groans; finally it speaks: “Let there be light!”

    The relevance is this: Some super computer will gather all the Info in the Ether (the ethereal info-verse) and use it solve problems. And maybe our jottings on this page will be used to calculate the solutions to some conundrums in science, politics, history and the law, millennia, billennia hence.

    That is once we figure out what human consciousness is! You see, we don’t know. We know computers are not conscious! If truth be told, we still haven’t created a computer that’s as sophisticated as a cat.

    And, indeed, computers may outstrip our brains in smarts, but in instincts, “in senses, dimensions, affections, passions.”? Not so fast!

    Finally, remember, each cell in the human body (there are a trillion of them) performs one trillion biochemical processes per second. One trillion x one trillion x 10 billion human beings is 10 to the 34th cycles per second of processes every second of every day of every year, sleeping or waking; and that’s conscious and subconscious processing power.

    Some world! One world! Created in the beginning . . . 13.5 billion years ago, scientists say.

    The bible says it began with a sound, a voice, a command, a movement . . .

    Richard Strauss interpreted Zarathustra in the first movement of his tone poem, “Also Sprake Zarusthra”. (You know the music from Kubric’s 2001, the Space Odyssey) better than Nietzsche did in his prose, “Thus Spoke Zarusthra.”

    At Bulldog’s Lounge, in the 1970s, a hard rock band from Dorchester opened with Strauss; the band starred Golden Joe Baker, introduced as “Direct from Las Vegas” “The closest they got to Vegas,” a patron once said, “ was probably Squires in Revere.”

    It was showbiz. So, was the Big Bang!

    1. And the whole bloody thing might be happening in a tiny bubble.

      I heard that there were more microbes on a square centimeter on the inside of my colon that there were humans that have ever lived.

      And speaking of Vegas, Wayne Cochran died.

  54. It is not uncommon to hear the sounds of Deodato wafting thru the Flying Pond
    Variety parking lot and reverberating off the small cluster of mountains that
    surround Flying Pond here in Vienna Maine.
    Customers jitterbugging their way to their to their cars in the Maine prehistoric
    dawn holding a steaming hot cup of Green Mountain Coffee while biting into
    their home made Lutefisk McMuffin.

    Deodato – Also sprach Zarathustra

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKsp9_L24Q

    1. Khalid:
      I believe the Access Hollywood Tape is real. I recall Trump said, gals “LET YOU GRAB THEM” when you’re a celebrity.

      Lot’s of stuff Trump says is malarkey. Same with lots of spin/falsehoods from MSM, WaPo etc!

      Remember Weapons of Mass Destruction? Should we have trusted our Pols, MSM and “Intelligence Agencies” back then. Didn’t they spin, conceal and take info out of context? Don’t they still?

  55. 9/11 and Other Deep State Crimes Teleconference
    wtc7 pentagon
    Draft Agenda for 11/29/17 Teleconference

    8pm (ET)/5pm (PT) Teleconference # (641) 715-0632 Access code: 551571#
    [Note: Some telephone service providers block access to this teleconference service, or require additional charges. If you encounter any of these difficulties, please try calling this alternative number: (716) 293-9623. You will then be required to key in the original phone number above before entering the access code. Please inform of us of any technical difficulties you encounter in accessing the teleconference.]

    Greetings all,

    To start us off this month, Craig McKee will give his assessment of how the 9/11 Truth Movement can address the contentious question of what happened, and what didn’t happen, at the Pentagon on 9/11 as well as how friction within the movement over this subject might be overcome. To this end, Craig will explain a new initiative he has taken to find common ground on a point that, he asserts, shows the official story false – that a 757 did NOT hit the Pentagon.

    This month of we commemorate the assassination of president John F Kennedy. Was this this the work of an isolated cabal or the maiden voyage of the US Deep State? To mark the occasion and help us connect these dots, we’re fortunate to be joined by recognized researcher and director of the Justice Integrity Project Andrew Kreig. Fifty years have now passed since this tragic event unfolded! Don’t miss this opportunity to hear the latest word on the JFK assassination/Deep State connection from this renowned advocate of truth!

    We’ll close with any announcements you have to share with the Truth community.

    See you Wednesday night for these latest currents in the Truth movement!

    Peace,
    Ken Freeland
    Cheryl Curtiss
    Craig McKee

    DRAFT AGENDA for Wednesday 29 November Teleconference

    I Roll Call, minutes approval (see below), agenda approval (5 min)

    II “The Pentagon: Where we’ve been and where we need to go” [Craig McKee] (commentary and discussion-25 min)

    III “The JFK Assassination and the Deep State” [Andrew Kreig] (30 min) {Cheryl}

    IV Announcements

    V Any available updates on issues of identified ongoing concern (if any remaining time)\
    New articles, books, films, or recent news about 9/11 or other Deep State crimes
    9/11 and the Deep State on the legal front, including current adjudicatory efforts by Lawyers for 9/11 Inquiry, JASTA, 28 pages, William Pepper’s efforts with AE911Truth against NIST and the Dept. of Commerce
    Censorship and cognitive infiltration: new examples of censorship or harassment of members of the Truth community; MSM treatment of 9/11 Truth
    Google censorship
    The 9/11 Consensus Panel
    9/11 Truth political candidates
    VI Adjournment (by 9:30 p Eastern)

    This draft agenda sent to:
    John Heartson, Don DeBar, Scott Halfmann, Steven E. Jones, William Rodriguez, David Ray Griffin, William Douglas, Steve Alten , Tom Tvedten, Justin Martel, Les Jamieson, Michael Jackman, Michael Wolsey, Peggy Brewster, Barrie Zwicker, Erik Lawyer, Gabriel Day, Kevin Barrett, PhD, Carol Brouillet, Mia Hamel, Paul Craig Roberts, Jack Blood, Diana (for investigar11s.org), Cheryl Curtiss, Jodie Baltazar, Jarek Kupsc, Joseph Culp, Ken Jenkins, Ellen Mariani, Gerhard Bedding, Jack Shimek, Paul Krik, Rock Creek Free Press, Damon Bean, Allan Giles, Kyle Hence, Michael Berger, Dylan Avery, Jason Burmas, Mike Palecek, Donald Stahl, Ray McGovern, Cynthia McKinney, Ph,D, Don Plummer, Doug Wight, Global Outlook, Paul Zarembka, Penny Little, Bob Cable, Suzanne Warson, Peter Thottam, Ralph Schoenman, Carol Wolman, Scholars for 911 Truth & Justice, Hummux, Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth, Frank Morales, Frank Tolopko, Alan Miller, James Hufferd, Ph.D., Erik Larson, Ted Walter , Suzanne Warson, Frederick Coward, Gordon Duff, Sherri Kane, Leonard Horowitz, William Woodward, Jerry Mazza, William Pepper, Wayne Madsen, David Kimball, Jeffrey Orling, Michael Marino, Lenny Mather, Ken Freeland, Tania Torres, Graeme MacQueen, Yumi Kikuchi, Stuart Hutchison, Roland Angle, Frank Agamemnon , Harold Hilton, Phil Restino, Rich McCampbell, John Zito, Manny Badillo, John Hankey, Oskar Mosquito, Edwin Jewett, Ms Anisa Fattah, Robert Barron, Shelton Lankford, Matthew Hayward, Anna Yeisley, Chris Pratt, Craig Ranke, Susan Lindauer, Barbara Honegger, Democritus Blantayre, Joseph Baltar, Jim Hogue, Sheila Casey, Steve Martin, Ben Collet, Elizabeth Woodward, Runyan Wilde, Susan Wolfe, Adam Ruff, Conrad Gilber. Jonathan Mark, Tonya Sneed, Dan Sutton, Richard Krushnic, Mark Crispin Miller, Byron Belitsos, George Ripley, Laurie Manwell , Susan Serpa, Nicolas Guillermo, Dwain Deets, Craig McKee, Steve Fahrney; Fran Shure; David Petrano, Lawrence Fine, A.K. Dewdney, Steve De’ak, Allan Rees, Art Olivier, Ron Avery, Michael Booth, Jim Fetzer, Laura Katleman, Don Gibbs, Mark Basile, John-Michael Talboo, Julian Stroh, Christopher Gruener, Elias Davidsson, Martin McGee, Adnan Zuberi, Jan Ravensbergen, Rich Aucoin, David Hooper, Wayne Coste, P.E., Don Fox, Bill Wilt, William Jacoby, Ron Neils, John Campbell, Dan Hennen, Barton Bruce, Cheri Aspenleiter, Stephen Phillips, Dick Atlee, Lynn Ertrell, Nita Renfrew. Frank Tolopko, Mark McDonald, Christopher Bollyn, John Paul OMalley, Rodger Bories, Mark Snyder, Jane Clark, Richard Sacks, Tim Michel, Lynn Bradbury, Xander Arena, David Cole, Rick Tufts, Jerry Turner, Rick Shaddock, Rebecca Schmoyer, Mark Mckertich, Kip Beckford, Doug West, PF Soto, Dennis Cimino, Jane Clark, Charles Ewing Smith, Lucy Morgan Edwards, Pablo Novi, David Rolde, Gregory Flynn, Pat O’Connell, Jeff Long, Greg McCarron, Andy Steele, Thomas Robichaud, Doug Mackenzie, Peter Michael Ketcham, Gene Laratonda, Karl Golovin, Steve Jarrott, Neil Marquis, Matt Van Slyke, Tony Hall, Ph.D, Ibrahim Soudy. Ph.D., Mike Springman, Ezra Smith, Samuel Smith, Janane Tripp, Daniel Fielding

    ********************************************************

    Craig McKee, Secretary 9/11 Monthly Teleconference Call
    **********************
    Draft minutes for the Wed., October 25, 2017 regular conference call

    Present were:

    Ken Freeland, Teleconference co-facilitator, Houston 9/11Truth
    Cheryl Curtiss, Teleconference co-facilitator, Connecticut 9/11 Truth
    Craig McKee, Teleconference secretary, Truth and Shadows
    James Hufferd, 9/11 Grassroots
    Wayne Coste, TAP
    David Cole, Nine Eleven Accountability Team
    Peter Michael Ketcham, formerly of NIST
    Barbara Honegger, Behind the Smoke Curtain
    Frank Tolopko, Berkshire 9/11 Truth
    John O’Malley, DC911Truth
    Charles Ewing Smith
    Barrie Zwicker, Towers of Deception
    Dwain Deets, TAP
    Greg Longo, 9/11 activist
    Bill Wilt, Mass. congressional candidate
    Cat McGuire, 9/11 Truth Outreach
    David Rolde, Boston 9/11 Truth
    Pat O’Connell, TAP
    Karl Golovin, 9/11 activist
    Wayne Madsen, The Madsen Report
    Michael Cook, AE911Truth
    Bill Wilt, Congressional candidate

    The minutes of the September 27, 2017 conference call were APPROVED pending the inclusion of a link to the final video shot in New York City on Sept. 11.

    The draft agenda was APPROVED.

    Pressure on Hulsey students
    Wayne Madsen discussed his article on the pressure brought against students of Prof. Leroy Hulsey of the University of Alaska who is doing an engineering study of the destruction of Building 7.

    Discussion on 9/11 Rogue Agenda
    Charles Ewing Smith lead a discussion of his film 9/11 Rogue Agenda. Anyone who would like to watch the film can do so here. Charles invites everyone to offer feedback

    Discussion on 9/11 Rogue Agenda
    Wayne Coste gave another presentation on the Pentagon that addressed some questions that had been raised on a past teleconference. You can view his PowerPoint presentation here: http://www.hopeoutloud.org/pentagon/Pentagon_Plane_Approach_And_Impact.pdf

    Announcements
    Wayne Coste mentioned a conference that is going on in November in New York City that is to feature William Binney, who will discuss NSA systems that were turned off for 9/11 and then back on after the event.
    Barbara Honegger noted that the day after the call, the remaining Kennedy documents were scheduled to be released from the National Archive. She added that there are two historic JFK conferences going on in November.
    Craig McKee announced that he will be making a statement on the next call about where he thinks the Truth Movement needs to go with respect to the Pentagon. He hopes that as many people as possible will participate in the discussion.
    Wayne announced that he will follow up on a presentation Craig did about the increasing Google suppression of alternative websites, adding that an article on the subject is being posted on the 911tap.org site.

    Call began at 8 p.m. EST and adjourned at 9:40 p.m. EST/5 p.m. to 6:40 p.m. PST

    Audio of the Oct. 25 call can be heard here: http://www.houston911truth.net/audio/102517.mp3. The next monthly teleconference will take place on Wednesday, Nov. 29, 2017 at 8 p.m. EST, 5 p.m. PST. Please email agenda items for next call to facilitator Ken Freeland (by Nov. 25. Please use subject line “Agenda item for 911 Truth Teleconference.” Please include a brief description of your item and any relevant links you’d like participants to be aware of, together with your estimate of the number of minutes your agenda item will require.

  56. Bombogenesis = EXXON Warming

    https://robertscribbler.com/2017/11/27/54-fahrenheit-above-average-extreme-warming-event-for-greenland-baffin-bay-underway/

    54 Fahrenheit Above Average: Extreme Warming Event For Greenland, Baffin Bay Underway
    At the mouth of Baffin Bay just off the West Coast of Greenland today hurricane force wind gusts are blowing in from the south.

    This roaring invasion of warm air originates from the Central Atlantic along a latitude line south of the Azores. It climbs hundreds of miles north to where it is intensified between a grinding 975 mb low off Labrador and a massive 1042 mb high squatting over Central Greenland. Temperatures in this warm air mass range from near 50 degrees (F) over Southwestern Greenland to around 40 degrees (F) over the mouth of Baffin Bay. Or between 9 and 36 degrees (F) above normal for this time of year.

    (Hurricane force wind gusts are driving a wedge of above freezing air into Baffin Bay and over Western Greenland at a time when these regions should be seeing well below freezing conditions. Image source: Earth Nullschool.)

    This warm wind driven air mass is expected to move north over the next 24 to 48 hours. It will steadily blanket both glaciers and areas typically covered with sea ice. And as it does so, it will push temperatures above freezing for large sections of both Baffin Bay and Western Greenland with above 32 F readings progressing as far as the Petermann Glacier.

    What this means is that temperatures will likely hit record ranges of up to 54 degrees Fahrenheit above average in some locations near the far northern extent of this expected warm air invasion. Overall, Greenland itself is expected to see 15 degree (F) above average readings for the entire island. This will generate brief surface melt conditions for parts of Greenland during late November.

    (Large region of 20 to 30 C, or 36 to 54 F, above average temperatures is predicted to blanket Greenland and the Canadian Archipelago after moving north through Baffin Bay over the next two days. Image source: Global and Regional Climate Anomalies.)

    Strong warm air invasions of the Arctic at this time of year are a signal coming from human-forced climate change. As the northern pole darkens with winter, a global warming related phenomena called polar amplification ramps up. In addition, during recent years, we’ve seen warm air slots tend to develop beneath strong ridging features in the upper level Jet Stream. This year, the warm air slots have tended to form over the Bering Sea along the Pacific side of the Arctic and progress northward into the Chukchi. This has resulted in a large zone of ice free waters for a typically frozen region between Alaska and Siberia as warm winds and storm force waves have continuously beat the ice back.

    The present warm air invasion for Greenland may be a signal that a similar warm air slot is attempting to develop over Baffin Bay going forward. Or it may be a fluke in the overall pattern. Watch this space.

  57. Flynn rolled. I’m surprised. I thought Manafort would sell out Glorious Leader, first. Looks like FSB has their hooks so deep into Manafort, he’s got to ride the Trump train right to the very end. Wa-llahi! I hope Mueller indicts Trump. Bank him with Jim, but don’t bunk him with Jim. Nobody deserves a motor-mouth bunkenstein like Trump.

  58. Moore should have been greased.

    AdChoices
    Hamilton Gregory, Contributor
    Hamilton Gregory, a Vietnam veteran, is author of McNamara’s Folly: The Use of Low-IQ Men in the Vietnam War, and he appears in a YouTube video entitled “McNamara’s Folly.”
    The Forgotten History Of ‘Fragging’ In Vietnam
    Senate candidate Roy Moore was reportedly among those officers targeted by their own men.
    11/26/2017 09:39 pm ET

    UNIVERSAL HISTORY ARCHIVE VIA GETTY IMAGES
    350
    Fragging – the murder of officers and sergeants by their own troops – was in the news recently when it was reported that Roy Moore, currently campaigning in Alabama for a U.S. Senate seat, risked being killed by some of his subordinates in Vietnam.

    After graduating from West Point in 1969, Moore served in Germany as a lieutenant and then he was promoted to captain and given command of the 188th Military Police Company in Vietnam in 1971. This came during the final years of the war when men who were violent, drug-addled, or disturbed became a significant presence in the Army and Marine Corps, causing a serious breakdown of discipline. In 1971, Colonel Robert D. Heinl wrote in Armed Forces Journal, “Our Army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous.”

    The term “fragging” was derived from the fact that a fragmentation grenade was rolled into the area where an officer or NCO was sleeping. When it exploded, no fingerprints could be found. The target was often a leader who was hated because he was incompetent in leading men, or excessively harsh in his discipline, or overly aggressive in waging war (putting the lives of soldiers and Marines at unnecessary risk just so that he could gain glory and advance his own career).

    In addition to thousands of threats that were never carried out, there were confirmed reports of at least 800 fraggings or attempted fraggings in the Army and Marine Corps, with 86 men killed and an estimated 700 wounded. “But this was probably only the tip of a deadly iceberg,” says historian James Westheider. The true figure may never be known.

    According to Westheider, many officers felt unsafe simply because they were authority figures. During his second tour in Vietnam at Duc Pho in 1968-1969, Major Colin Powell (later a four-star general) said he was “living in a large tent and I moved my cot every night, partly to thwart Viet Cong informants who might be tracking me, but also because I did not rule out attacks on authority from within the battalion itself.” Captain Thomas Cecil, who was stationed at Cam Ranh Bay in 1970-1971, “was so worried about attacks on his life that during his last month in Vietnam, he slept in the military intelligence (MI) bunker, and only his battalion commander knew where he was at night.”

    In his autobiography So Help Me God, Roy Moore said that when he took command of his company in Vietnam, “drug use was widespread and insubordination was commonplace.” He immediately enforced strict discipline. “I administered many Article Fifteens, disciplinary charges filed against insubordinate or disobedient soldiers,” especially drug users.

    As a result, he said, he received threats of death by fragging. “I became a marked man,” he said. Claiming that he was not intimidated, he refused to soften his discipline. He did, however, take precautionary measures to reinforce his sleeping area. “I placed sandbags under the bed and in the walls of my quarters.”

    Moore learned that “a known drug user by the name of Kidwell” was planning to kill him. “Several weeks passed before I was called one evening and informed that Kidwell had shot First Sergeant Howard and was coming for me. Armed with an automatic rifle and my 45-caliber pistol, I proceeded to company headquarters, only to find that Kidwell had been taken into custody and was sitting in my office. I made arrangements for a prompt court martial and was relieved that First Sergeant Howard had survived.”

    Army veteran George Lepre’s book-length investigation of hundreds of fraggings (Fragging: Why U.S. Soldiers Assaulted Their Officers in Vietnam) found that most of the attacks occurred after dark in Army and Marine Corps units — they were rare in the Air Force and Navy. Innocent bystanders sometimes became “the unintended victims of the attacks,” and the families of fragging victims usually were not given the true details of what had happened to the deceased.

    Most fraggings occurred inside camps, while out in jungles and rice paddies, a different method was used by infantrymen who wanted to kill “bad officers,” according to Robert Nylen, a combat infantry officer and author of Guts. “Sometimes, an errant bullet struck an incompetent fool amid a firefight. Problem solved.”

    According to military historians, murders of superiors have been rare in America’s recent wars – Iraq and Afghanistan – because the military draft was ended in 1973 and an all-volunteer armed force was instituted. Efforts were made to exclude criminals, drug addicts, and misfits.

    Hamilton Gregory, a Vietnam veteran, is author of McNamara’s Folly: The Use of Low-IQ Men in the Vietnam War, plus the Induction of Unfit Men, Criminals, and Misfits, and he appears in a YouTube video entitled “McNamara’s Folly.”

    1. An acquaintance went to WPI and was in ROTC. Late in the war he went to Vietnam. Maybe 1973ish. He was a solid soldier but didn’t do what he thought he was going to do in a war zone. No combat. Mostly clerical and as he put it, with the biggest bunch of lay-about’s as soldiers he could have ever imagined in his command. These guys didn’t even know where their rifles were. The first time they blew up his bunk they made sure he was not in it. Message sent. The second time he was suppose to be in it but as luck would have it he was not. Tough year for the guy. His family was full of vets. His father was in North Africa and his desire to serve, as his father did, led him to Vietnam. It just didn’t turn out the way he thought it would. But he survived. To think he might have gotten wounded or killed by his own men bothered him for a long time after.

    1. Facts: multiple women: Yes. To be exact: two young teens with very flawed stories say he assaulted them (groped them.) The story of the third, a 28 year old check forger, is ridiculously implausible. She told no one for what 20 years he grabbed her bum? The first two really told no one the details for 15 or more years; the incidents were @ 40 years old, and their stories don’t jive with documentary evidence!
      Just trying to set the “facts” as we know them straight!

  59. 1. Good posts on fragging.

    2. Msfreeh: Doug Jones only locked up men who were timely accused and kept them locked up if tried and convicted. You missed the word “alleged.” Roy Moore locked up (as MP) prosecuted (as A.D.A.) sentenced (as Judge) and reviewed the appeals (as Jurist on state’s highest court) of the same type of men. Which makes me wonder further what man, who knows the law, would blithely risk his entire professional career on a two minute dalliance? A drunk may do something stupid. Stone cold sober?

    3. Some troops hated disciplinarians. Some understood the need for discipline in a war zone. As said, Moore was a hard-ass, not an asshole. They fragged the latter!

    Some troops had bad officers.

    My friend, Eddie, a Marine Viet Vet, recalls a bad officer who one time told his men to “charge” (advance on a position); it would have been a suicidal attack; one jarhead put his weapon up to the bad officer’s head and said, “Give that order again and you’re a dead man!” The order was not given again. The matter never reported.

    Some officers and men admired Moore. At least one captain who served with him for four months in the field in Vietnam has written about Moore’s solid, commendable character. Lots of men wearing Viet Vets hats are supporting Moore! One of Moore’s son graduated West Point. Another son is in the military.

    In contrast, remember the Swift Boat Veterans: about 50-plus, as I recall, who signed a letter condemning John Kerry. Shall we stone John Kerry, too. Malign him? Demand he never run for office? I wouldn’t. I don’t like Kerry’s political views: too liberal; I admire his service. I didn’t like his defaming Viet Vets before Congress. My relatives and friends who served in Vietnam were all honorable men; my classmates, men and women, one a nurse, also served their honorably; the names of 24 young men on the South Boston Vietnam Veterans Memorial and 80 young men on the Dorchester Vietnam Veterans Memorial were names of honorable men. I knew some personally who died there; I knew others’ brothers, family. Honorable men!

    3. P.S. Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in killing JFK. Let’s not talk 54 years ago. We’re already getting bogged down in a quagmire talking 40 year old allegations.

    4. This, too, I remember: Some on this Blog predicting Trump would be out of office by May 2017, and Mosul would not be taken without 150,000 more American troops.

    5. We can’t predict the future. We can speculate. It’s reasonable to do so.

    6. As the past recedes, we see it differently, sometimes less clearly than today, sometimes more so.

    As human beings, we all see “through a glass darkly.” More so, these days, it seems.

    We wonder if we’re living in in a world like those depicted in Kubrick’s Space Odyssey or Clockwork Orange or More’s Utopia or the dystopian worlds of Orwell and Huxley. Perhaps a hodgepodge, a mishmash of all. The MSM, computers and Internet run amok; psychobabble; amorality; Big Brother and his all intrusive government!

    One of the best lines I’ve read recently is the last line in of Dennis Lehane’s short story, “Running out of Dog”.

    He wrote: “In case you haven’t noticed, in life you usually pay for your sins; in the South always.”

    The question is what’s the greater sin? Lust, bearing false witness, pre-judging (prejudice) rumor-mongering, or schadenfreude?

    In other words are we talking about to Kill a Mockingbird or Elmer Gantry?

    I’ve already cast my vote: Not guilty!

    1. So it is not about the man. It is about the mission in spite of the man.

      I have no problem with Pat or his assessment. I have met him here several times and he seems like a good bloke when you are chatting about the weather. His headquarters were here in McLean when he ran for president. (I think he lives around here somewhere.) I forget which of his runs. I met one of his top campaign managers that year and told her that he had no chance. She was not upset but wanted to hear my reason why. I said that radicals get almost all of their support right off the bat. Someone as bigoted and polarizing as Pat would never fill the void. She grinned and said that Mister Buchanan will do just fine. I said that 20% is not just fine enough in a presidential election.

      Moore might have the same problem as Pat did. His support might not grow and there is a good chance it will shrink.

      1. True enough. I supported Pat when he got @ 1% of the vote in the primaries.

        And I agree we’re on the horns of a dilemma. (1) Principles first: the end does not justify the means; or (2) the lesser of two evils: Moore’s alleged “evils” are 40 years old; Doug Jones will swell government, more abortions, the whole liberal agenda.

        The horns of a dilemma. We know for sure what Doug Jones will do; we don’t know for sure what Roy Moore did, if anything.

        Remember when they wanted to burn Galileo at the stake because he had a different idea?

        We’ll I have different ideas: I think I think differently; usually in the minority; almost always cheering for the underdog (Except, I always cheer for B.C. Football, underdog or not, and always cheered for Marvin Hagler and Roberto Duran, sometimes underdogs.)

        Some people say the lesser of two evils; Choose a guy who’s conservative but who may have groped two underage girls 40 years ago when he was 30. Or put principles before politics and never elect a guy who may have molested two young teens 40 years ago.

        Here’s where I differ:

        I say, even if he did, so what? He stopped. He didn’t rape, he didn’t have intercourse with 17 year-olds like Studds and Crane, he wasn’t running a brothel out of his house, like Barney Frank. He may have sinned very badly on two occasions. We’d all concede that. It may have happened forty years ago. He stopped, then. No further complaints in 40 years. Forgive, forget, move on.

        He was 30-plus and harmlessly dated 17-18-19 year-olds in the 1970s. So what? So did half the bachelor and divorced men I grew up, when the drinking age was 18, and bars and dance halls were stacked. So did Heffner, Springer, Elvis, Hughes, Hilton, and all the guys who courted the likes of Elizabeth Taylor.

        Once upon a time grown men dated 18-19 year-olds. Mostly it was harmless. Most never got to first base; never laid a glove on them, unless they were the initiators. Two friends showed up with college freshmen at a party at a friend’s house; two took others out to dinner and a movie. So what?
        Maybe they were thinking of marriage or re-marriage and like Moore hoped when the young ladies were 22-24 and they were 34-38, they’d hook up for life. One did!

        Maybe it was all honest and honorable. It was, in my time, in my gang. But we were big city kids.

        I remember one party when one of the guys came in with his date: a dancer from the Teddy Bear Lounge; she was welcomed and treated with courtesy and respect; she was probably a student putting her way through college or grad school. So what? I remember living in Maryland when a friend’s friend showed up with his very lovely wife: a former college aged dancer at a popular club. So what? Some guys and girls walk on the wild side.

        So what?

        Second, I say, I doubt the 40 year old stories.

        Third, I have three lifelong friends (a businessmen, a teacher, a priest); the priest a straight arrow was accused by one person of doing something 30 years earlier. (A total lie! The intensive investigation (the effin’ Inquisition) cleared him totally.) The businessmen almost had his business destroyed because one young woman (20s) filed a contemporary complaint ( he allegedly touched her shoulder, stood close to her) a lengthy, costly legal process resulted in his total exoneration. A 15 year old accused the teacher of, get this, “touching her shoulder” too, but more, “looking at her”; essentially the same complaint. After another lengthy investigation, his name was cleared totally, too.

        The point: All three fallacious stories, false allegations, made the newspapers and the newspapers made them look sordid. All three men are among the most honorable men I’ve ever known in my lifetime; all three, on trumped-up charges, almost had their careers destroyed.

        So, you get where I”m coming from!

        1. I do get where you are coming from. I was just on the phone with one of my customers from Bethesda. I’ll be going over there to work in about an hour. Her husband was a Marine chopper pilot. He died about ten years ago. She is a conservative Catholic. A conservative and a Catholic, I should say. (She has friends that only attend Latin Mass and do not eat meat on Friday. Really conservative Catholics). Anyway, she is a big fan of Matt Lauer. Not necessarily his politics but his style and manner, I suppose. She agreed with me when I asked that this question be answered before executing Lauer; How much equals the complete loss of credibility and career?

          You shouldn’t just say it was water under the bridge. Lets move on. Most people that are abused never say anything to anyone about it. There are people that are inspired many years later to come forth with their stories. To be molested or even propositioned for a young woman or man can be extremely traumatic and have lifelong consequences.

          I’ll tell you a story about a friend from Dorchester. In 1938 he was raped by a priest. He told one person. His father. His father beat the crap out of him and told him to never mention it to anyone ever again. Fifty years later he told the story. Not a single word for fifty years. It is not easy for a man to tell a story like that. Damn near impossible for most.

          If your side of the Roy Moore story is true, minus the anecdotal sidebars that are not pertinent, I’m OK with it. If he molested underage girls in any way, I’m not OK with it at all. I want him out. As Shaq once said, “P-E-R-O-D.”

          1. Abe: I see that side of the story, too. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood . . . and we differ . . . !

            Alan Dershowitz(who has done his own share of mudslinging: for example, review the Judge Paul Mahoney case, where Dersh. opposed his nomination because Mahoney once told an anti-Semitic joke; you know the one about the rabbi, priest and minister meeting St. Peter at the the Golden Gates; it has a thousand variations; well Dersh’s real reason was Mahoney was a friend of Bill Bulger, and Dersh (lib) and Bulger (con) clashed on many issues) . . . anyway Alan D. often said one thing I mostly agreed with: “It’s better that 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be incarcerated.” I’d make it more like 10 to 1, but I agree in principle.

            Matt Lauer I always liked and thought he tried to be fair. He was excoriated for asking Hillary questions.

            Franken? I don’t like. Too, bad, though, because I’d never fire anyone for hugging someone or slapping someone’s fanny. When in Rome, though, . . . . We’re not in Rome. We’re not in the Age of Aquarius. We sometimes seem closer to the Inquisition, the burning of witches, and Salem Witch trials.

            And I agree, some conduct is beyond reprehensible . . . it’s abhorrent and detestable, and merits firing, maybe a firing squad, at least, debarment, defrocking, disqualification . . . if proven, even outside of a courtroom, if proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

            And remember we have civil and social standards that require less stringent standards of proof . . . ( a preponderance of evidence; more likely than not) but still we should require “proofs” . . . beyond mere allegations, rumors, stories!

  60. In 1971, Colonel Robert D. Heinl wrote in Armed Forces Journal, “Our Army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous.”

    The crotch, too.

  61. Khalid: our armed forces were demoralized by the end of the Vietnam War; not as badly as some say; all knew we were pulling out.

    Msfreeh: Better to investigate the assassination of the Austrian Archduke and ask why that led to WWI and its consequences, including WWII. Wall Street Journal recommends novel, “Dark French Blood”.

    Revisiting JFK’s killing is just spinning wheels and wasting time, in my humble opinion.

    Studying Vietnam, WWI and II, is endlessly rewarding!

    Today’s zeitgeist has swept us up into a reexamination of moral standards.

    That’s good!

  62. Jimmy Carter was right. But most men don’t lust for young ‘uns.

    Remember poor Michael Kennedy; From 34-39 caught in an affair with 14 -19 year old babysitter. Not good. He should have waited a few years. If caught at 34 having sex with a 14 year old he’d have been prosecuted for “statutory rape” punishable, in most states very severely, “up to life”. There are exceptions: Romeo and Juliet Laws.

    Poor Garrison Keillor says he only “touched” her back; it was bare skin, because that was the kind of blouse she was wearing. Maybe he lingered too long on the back, but an apology, not a firing would have sufficed, before our modern day Inquisition began.

    The law is complex in these areas. Every touching is not an assault. However, in the workplace it can be: Title IX makes a federal case out of everything remotely off-color in every workplace: a “sexual harassment” incident can include “looking” and “joking” and “standing close” and “repeatedly asking out”.

    Flirting is definitely taboo, in every workplace in America these days.

    Even outside the workplace, today, you’d probably want to get permission in writing, notarized, before trying for first base.

  63. As Bill “rhapsody in blue” C constantly reminds us

    ” I like to beat it until it bleeds,
    then I beat it for bleeding”

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