Before retracing my steps back to where I left off after I wandered away to discuss the news that more books about Whitey were coming out from the Boston Globe, I want to talk about whether it is in Whitey’s interest to testify, or even have a trial.
Pam, in her comment, disagrees with my assertion that Whitey won’t testify. She suggests, as I used to believe, that Whitey has nothing to lose.
She’s right in that assertion. He has nothing to lose. There is no way anything that he testifies to will hurt him. First, no one is going to believe him; next, any testimony he gives will incriminate him, and finally, all his enemies are lusting to mock his testimony.
Assume Whitey gets the one in a million jury that is filled with people of a nullifying mind who are interested in giving him a break. They find him not guilty. He has gained nothing.
Here’s his problem. If Whitey is found not guilty of all 19 murder charges, close to an impossibility as you can get, then he has to go off to Florida to face a murder charge. His living conditions in Florida will be much worse than those of Plymouth which he is complaining about. If he beats the Florida charges, he has to go on to Oklahoma to sit in another dreadful cell while he awaits trial on murder charge. The reason the accommodations in both Florida and Oklahoma will be so dreadful is because he faces the death penalty in both states and prisoners in those situations are usually far down on the list when it comes to amenities.
In other words, Whitey loses if he wins. He faces Sartre’s NO Exit. Only in his hell he will only have himself as his companion. He’ll learn that Garcin was wrong when he said: “Hell is other people.” He will realize Hell is the absence of other people.
For Whitey the end of his trial is the beginning of his hell whatever the outcome of the trial. He will be dragged out of Plymouth County and sent far away where visits will be infrequent if not non-existent and the ability to communicate outside the walls highly restricted. His only hope of making his life tolerable is to stay in Plymouth, or in a Boston hospital with a life threatening illness. There’s little hope he can do this.
The forces working against him are strong. No way will the early June, 2013 trial date be changed. The best he can hope is to drag out his trial to perhaps six weeks or two month, the later case if he testifies. By August or assuming he can really push the delay button, by September, his hell will begin. He’s like someone knowing the date and time of his execution in the electric chair, there’s a set time in the near future for him to face the first hell from which he will never emerge breathing, not a speedy exit like the chair but a slow execution.
Why then testify if testifying will accomplish nothing? The universal belief of those who believe he will testify is that he wants to tell his story. He wants to set the record straight. If Whitey is testifying because of that, then he is a grand fool. He should know that no one will believe a word he says. His story has already been written by the lies of his fellow gangsters. His story has already been written by the made up stories by those who have written books. Their stories have been believed by the judges in all the courts. They will tell their stories and not Whitey’s.
His testimony will be reported by people intent on maintaining the story that is already out there. He can do nothing about that. Had he the ability to bring in twelve angels who would testify after him that everything he said was true, he’d still not be believed and the media would make no mention of the dozen angels.
Someone should tell him there is nothing he can do to change the public perception or his reputation. His trial testimony will only cement the public’s present knowledge. His expected denial of killing the young women will be met with scorn. No one will believe it. His other explanation of the other murders will likewise be rejected. Whitey who is known for figuring things out apparently can’t see this simple outcome.
If Whitey is the man he is reputed to be, then he must accept his ultimate fate. He should stop whining about his jail house conditions. He should go down like a man which means he should stop this absurd circus that has been created around him. He must recognize for every day it continues his family who have been loyal to him suffers. They don’t need to have anymore of these Whitey stories enriching their enemies. It’s time Whitey started thinking of those who stuck by him and suffered for doing so. It’s time he paid them back just a little.
Whitey should have his counsel step down from his case. There is nothing J.W. Carney can do for him anymore. There is nothing ten J.W. Carneys working in concert can do. Whitey is doomed.
He should conduct his trial pro se. He should do all in his power to refuse to show up for the circus that is being put on only to benefit others. If forced to show up he must just sit there with his head on the table. Ask no questions. Don’t act up. Don’t do anything to legitimize the proceedings or to undermined them. You can’t win, don’t participate. Let the government try the case to an empty chair if you can. Let the jury look at an empty chair.
Stop having yourself displayed as if you were a participant in a freak show. You are now nothing more than Quasimodo being carted around for the edification of your enemies who fill their pockets with money you will make for them. Don’t you understand that all you can accomplish now is to enrich those who most hate you and damage those who most love you?
You’re 83. Time to move on. Do it with dignity.
100% correct, Matt! Very well said!
Bill:
I used to get 100% marks when I was a milk boy at the Michael J. Perkins School. The last time I got 100% correct was when I was an ink boy at the John A. Andrews School. When I ended up in the John Lothrop Motley I was surrounded by bad influences that taught me it was more fun to break the gas lanterns walking to woodworking class than to study. Plus, our teacher Miss Kennedy didn’t like Irish kids nor did her substitute Miss O’Sullivan. They gave me bad marks even though I never studied. But it feels good to get a 100% correct mark again. Thanks.
Matt: Good comments from one and all!
My view: All Whitey needs is one juror, like me, who has “reasonable doubts” about everything the serial killers say and who sees Fred Wyshak as a sham and a coddler of killers: a hung jury as pay-back for the prosecutors cutting deals with serial killers.
News from yesterday: I was told that Carney, outside federal court, said Bulger was never an informant. Looks like Whitey and Carney are cooking up some surprises!
Also from yesterday: The devious ones, ONeil and Lehr, were on the devious one Howie Carr’s radio show touting their new book: Some excerpts: They said (1) “In 1958,” Billy used his “political influence” to get law school dean Father Drinan to write to Whitey in Federal prison. Billy was a sophmore in college, a poor kid from the projects, who served as a private in the army from 1951-53. What “political influence”? (2) They said Whitey was an informant in 1956: The Feds had 2 guys in the bank robberies; Whitey then gave up two more: Barshard and O’Brien; Whitey then convinced his girlfriend to snitch on B and O’B. Whitey cut a deal for himself! What? Some deal: a 20 year sentence, of which he served 9. I eagerly await your insights into their book!
3. They mention Congress investigated Billy for sponsoring legislation that cut State Cop’s pay; they say Billy said “four times” before Congress that he had nothing to do with that legislation; they admit that Congress, after a thorough search for Billy’s “fingerprints” on the legislation, absolved Billy of any wrongdoing; But they said, “Flemmi told us Billy was involved in that legislation.” Flemmi was in the Senate then? Flemmi is an expert on legislative processes?
In the 2012 novel Black Mass, Lerh and O’Neil write in the Index under “Bulger, Billy” this entry: “criminal charges against, 333”. Billy was never indicted, charged or convicted of any crimes, not even a misdemeanor. P. 333 discusses Whitey, Flemmi and Weeks’ crimes. This is more than a typo, more than a clerical error. They want to believe Billy committed crimes. Their pens drip with venom. Even the Index is spin; it indicates their glaring biases, subconciously or not. In Black Mass (2012), Lehr and O’Neil go to extraordinary devious lengths (seven pages, 215-222) to prove that Billy did something wrong in the 75 State Street Affair. With half-truths, they poke holes in the two federal investigations. They fail to mention in those pages that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and a Committee of Congress also investigated the 75 State Street matter and found no wrongdoing by Billy Bulger. It takes a discerning eye to see how devious Oneil and Lehr can be. In my book, they are cunning, evil men. Looking closely at their devious works, we better understand the phrase, “historical revisionism.”
Bill:
Maybe that’s the answer to the puzzle, Whitey will go through all this hoping for a hung jury. If that’s the case the trial will have to go on again. I suppose in that circumstance the feds will whip him out of Plymouth because they know that’s the one thing Whitey wants, not to go to another lock up. It’s the best he can hope for because either a guilty or not guilty will only give him a worse life.
I speculate today on Whitey and Carney’s new game plan. One thing that’s not in doubt, they plan to throw John Connolly to the wolves.
Lehr and O’Neill (L&O) have become a comedy team with Howie playing the straight guy. AS for (1) – I’ve yet to hear of a undergrad having influence on a law school dean, never mind even being able to talk to one. It’s just an attack on the clergy who L&O hold in disdain. (2) I’ve written on that before. There’s no evidence Whitey gave up anyone. All he did was agree to plead guilty and tell his girl friend to cooperate so she wouldn’t go to the can. She gave up the names of the others. Whitey got no deal, 20 years. In all my years of practice I never heard of a person who confesses to an armed robbery being called an informant but perhaps L&O have more prosecution experience than I have. (3) when you have nothing cite a gangster as your source. That tells the book L&O wrote is pretty much nonsense for the suckers who don’t think. Flemmi also said he didn’t want to kill his girls but Bulger made him do it and that Naimovich was his informant. Flemmi’s lies, like those of Martorano, could fill Yankee stadium.
L&O set up Billy Bulger back in 1988 with their phony 75 State Street story where they only told half of the story. They, Howie Carr and their friends in the prosecutors office have been trying to implicate Billy in some wrongdoing for years. Had Billy even crossed the street when he shouldn’t they’d have indicted him for that. Look at all the gangsters they’ve brought in looking for evidence against Billy and they have nothing. Even Weeks who was in daily contact with Whitey for years could give them nothing and as for Flemmi, if he had any evidence of a crime Billy committed the feds would have gone with it. And think of how amazing it is that despite being targeted since 1988 and having the major newspapers, high profile professors and professionals, Congressional committees, and a bevy of prosecutors damning him and calling for his prosecution, nothing has come out against Billy. That’s as amazing a part of the story as the continuing twists and turns in the Whitey case.
You make a very good argument about why whitey should just withdraw and not participate. It makes sense. But making sense isn’t exactly a common thread in this little southie drama. I don’t give whitey enough credit to be able to shut up. I think he’ll go down like Scarface, given the chance. I know it won’t help him escape the hell on earth and beyond that he’s earned. I believe you’re right about what happens if whitey testifies. Noone is really going to listen, the media will back up the denials, trial ends, books and movies commence in full force. Hey filmmakers, you gotta hurry for those limited tax credits… but this is a case that will be studied and debated) for centuries, I would speculate and what bulger has to say will be part of that record, and weighed against all the other ‘stories’. I think bulger understands that and to clam up is to protect the government (and all the criminals) that went back on it’s deal with him. Whatever that is, now that we hear he wasn’t an informant. Going down like Scarface was his end game plan in Santa Monica. I can’t imagine that’s changed in his mind. However, I’d be surprised if he actually gets a chance to testify. Eventually his writings will surface, and we’ll have that but my money is on a mysterious death before the public can be entertained with a trial. The GREATEST atrocities have been inflicted by bad governments. I hope YOU are planning another book(s) Mr Connolly. Enjoy the sunshine.
Kid:
Excellent comment. I’ve suggested Whitey only hurts his family by testifying but I have to admit I am probably close to delirious if I think Whitey would consider anyone other than himself. Whitey is probably biting at the bit to tell his version of the events. You remind me of the arsenal that he had in his apartment. What was his purpose in having all that stuff if not for some grand shoot out with the government forces surrounding his apartment with search lights and firing tear gas canisters into it (sort of like what happened yesterday out in Big Bear Lake) while he fires back and goes down in flames. I’d imagine that would have been better than where he now is. If that had occurred he never would have had a chance to get his story out. So why not keep shut, take his medicine, and just walk off the stage. I know that won’t happen. But in this saga with its daily twists and turns and the people who are supposed to be the experts missing most of them nothing would surprise me. On one hand I think no matter who he hurts he’ll want to spell out his version even if he’s going to look worse in the end. On the other I’ve heard his health is not what it was and he is deteriorating and he may be thinking that now is the time for repentance and keep his story to himself. Maybe you are right, he won’t make it to trial even without the intervention of some mysterious happening. It’d be nice to think I could put myself into his position more to figure out what he will do next but with his new story about not being an informant that is getting more and more difficult.
the above comments by sjm 1980 hit the nail on the head. yes i do want to hear whitey testify. i have only heard his voice on a mickey mouse recorded phone call. this man got away with acts which are hard to believe. the first question should be who was the person most responsible for your not getting arrested between 1965 and 2011? talk about an amazing run. no 120 minute movie can even begin to get into all the details of this mans life of crime. hearing him at trial would be a good start
Norwood:
I too would like to hear Whitey testify even though I’d believe very little of what he testified to. His lawyer, caught in a trap by Whitey’s letters, now says Whitey was never an informant. Flemmi testified he and Whitey were informants and were promised protection. Morris testified Whitey was an informant. Connolly had detailed records of Whitey giving him information. The case keeps getting stranger.
i feel somewhat bad saying this, but who cares if Whitey lives, dies, suffers in prison or gets off scott free. I want to be entertained, especially if we are paying for his trial. his whole life revolved around decpetion and making others the “puppets” of HIS play. Now it is our turn, the public’s turn to find out what he has to say. For crying out loud, we dont even know what his voice sounds like! There is one recording, i believe you can find online where he is inquiring about some real estate in the “Marine Park” section of South Boston on a phone call….but that is it! Its why we are all commenting on this blog and the reason Matt writes this blog. We are fascinated by Whitey and how he was able to run scott free for 25 years under the guide of the G Men. Now JW Carney says that Whitey was never an informant for anyone….why was he given all that credit by Connolly on his reports for taking down the Boston Mafia? This is turning into a circus.
SJM:
Most feel like you. Whitey living or Whitey dead means little to most people as long as before the latter happens he brightens up the summertime since the usual excitement of the summer, the Red Sox, may be out of contention by that time. You’re right that Whitey has always made others dance to his tune and now he is dancing to that of society. The only way he can stop that is to refuse to participate in his defense.
If Whitey wants to tell his story we’re all ears. Not that we will believe anything it’s just we want to hear him talk and tell of the world from his warped perspective. We want him to become a spectacle, something we can all enjoy. It’s like we’re standing outside a tent at a carnival and the barker is telling us to come inside and see some monstrous wonders like the boy with two heads. We can’t wait.
You are right, Whitey is fascinating to us. We’ve heard so much about him so we want to see him perform. You want to hear his voice but that will never happen, the federal court doesn’t allow its proceedings to be recorded for the public so part of your desires will never be met but you will be able to read about all he has to say filtered through a biased media. I’ll be in court, I hope, and will do my best to report on it.
But, I’m more and more getting the sense Whitey won’t testify.I sense that the whole purpose of Whitey having lawyers is to try to postpone his transfer out of Plymouth. Today’s hearing reaffirmed that this is a circus as you note. I’ll write more about it tomorrow.
I don’t really think that the writings of Kevin Cullen and the like are truly reflective of Whitey the prisoner. I doubt there is a prisoner alive who isn’t complaining of his circumstances. He is 83 years old and going on two years in solitary confinement. And he hasn’t yet been convicted. That sounds rather severe to me, especially given his age. Plus it seems his letters were addressed to a fellow former inmate in Alcatraz, and were probably a trip down memory lane to the ‘good old days,’ that kind of thing. The context matters.
And in case there is any doubt, I believe William Bulger to be a man of integrity. My family is originally from South Boston, and they have countless stories of the kindnesses he has done for them and others. I sincerely hope that he is not further harmed by this trial.
Pam:
Every prisoner complains but most have hope some day it will be different. Whitey lacks the one thing we all need to go on is hope in the future. You may suggest it is severe but you’d have to look hard and wide to find someone who’d care at all about Whitey’s confinement.
Whitey’s letters were of course about the good old days. You are right that every prisoner complains about his confinement and his food and the guards so suggesting it as Cullen does adds little to his story.
I hope to get to Billy Bulger and express my opinion of him. I’ve always believed he is a man of integrity who has been beset upon by a vile media intent on damaging him. I hope to spell out how this happened and show how absurd the stories about him are. Like you, I hope Whitey is smart enough to see that his trial will only be used to damage Billy.
Hear, hear, Pam Beasley! Good questions, all.
I agree with Matt that it doesn’t help Whitey to testify – it enriches his enemies, entertains the HELL out of us and definitely further harms William Bulger (who is practically just fine, no matter what his brother says – but socially, it could further hurt him in some circles, if Whitey testifies). I wonder whether or not Whitey truly cares about ‘other’ to even, truly, consider any external issue as regards his own fate, however. I am sure that he thinks he ‘loves’, but with his Self in trouble, I don’t think any love of others has strong or practical power to sway his decisions.
The question of whether or not Whitey testifies – whatever version of his truth he settles upon – is purely based upon his internal morality. I wonder if he’d take outside counsel on that question, truly. He’s smarter than everyone in the room, yes? I’d be mightily interested to know how he’s taking counsel, internally… Appealing to his ‘manhood’ (what does being a real ‘man’ mean to James Bulger, who no doubt, has an internal definition that is ultimately purely serving to the ‘Self’ and its own code…?), et. al., are, I suspect, a waste of bandwidth, paper and breath. It seems to me that he’s a clinical narcissist and a pure sociopath. I’d be stunned to learn that he’d really tried to cop any sort of plea for the benefit his moll, Greig. Nothing about what we’ve learned of him, or heard as regards his whining complaints of Plymouth, leads me to believe that he can be convinced of or dissuaded away from any course.
I admire Carney for being his lawyer – but I also know a couple of defense attorneys who’d kill for the opportunity to throw themselves into that excrement-covered fan… I understand the motivation, for their part, I think.
Is Whitey swayed by further limelight and is he deluded enough to believe that he could put the general public and *the jury* under his sway as he did so many others? Or is he – as I think – going to wait-and-see before deciding? I suggest that he’ll watch the warp and weft of trail and decide at the last moment what he’ll do. He’ll calculate, at all times, I believe, the impact his testimony could have, and he may want to identify specific jurors with the intent to manipulate an outcome. There is no doubt that this guy must have a cult-of-personality about him. Perhaps that will work for him – who knows? We can only hope that his glamour has faded, he’s tired and old, and it’s all too-little-too-late.
As a sales person, I’d love to really figure out WHAT tack on earth it would take to persuade him to take any ‘outside’-desired course…. But it doesn’t matter… In the end, he won, no matter what happens. He lived a life of freedom, near the ocean, in a rent controlled apartment, with a much younger, pretty woman who was his absolute slave. There is no payment he’ll make. To anyone. There is no justice. He did win.
Kristi:
When I first began writing the blog I said that Whitey was all about Whitey now you have come to my rescue and spelled it out in a better manner to reaffirm my original thought. You suggest my appeal to his better nature is based on the idea that he has one but for all practical purposes there is nothing he has shown to any of us that is the case.
Carney recognized his job is to give the best defense possible to Whitey which I think he and his co-workers have done. And no doubt, there are dozens of other lawyers who would like to be in Carney’s shoes. This is a one in a lifetime opportunity to represent the so-called worst criminal in American history and pus oneself in the defense lawyer hall of fame. But Carney is not a miracle worker and we can already see there is tension between him and White since clearly Whitey has undermined his legal positions in his letters.
When you think the world revolves around you it is likely you become very delusional. That’s why I wrote my post today, not that I have any reason to believe Whitey will ever get it but to hope that someone who may have contact with him will tell him the facts of life which are a total acquittal by a jury will only mean worse times ahead for him. Given that, he should try to bring about some closure to the circus by refusing to participate.
I don’t agree he won.
Had he died in freedom, even though his last years involved living in the shabby conditions in his sterile apartment by the sea and peering out his window at night to see if anyone was watching him and in a sense being as much a prisoner as if he were in prison you may have been able to say that he beat the system. But now that he’s going to spend the rest of his life in prison – being sentenced to death as much as any person on death row — without any companionship at all then he surely has lost. If he recognized this, then he might reach down and want to do the right thing which is throwing in the towel by taking the course I suggested.
You are right to note he’s tired and old.I’m told his confinement has taken its toll. He no longer doing the 100 daily push-ups. He’s frustrated. He’s cranky. Life offers him nothing. Yet, “that the dread of something after death, The undiscover’d country from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? It seems Whitey may try to get every bit of self-satisfaction out of this event because of his narcissist nature but that will be an ignoble ending. I’ve suggested a way he can redeem a little dignity.
Wow, Matt, that was harsh! I see what you are saying, that it is a hopeless case. But I really don’t think that he can harm his brother any more than he has. And, he is entitled to a defense and representation by counsel. I think that he can lob a few bombs at the “big show,” and embarrass some people (FBI, US Attorney’s office), and that will make it worth it to him. A question for you: do you think that the parties have made an effort to get him to plead guilty? Some of the things I have read indicate that he would have, in exchange for them going easy on his girlfriend. I’m curious as to why the feds wouldn’t consider that, knowing that the trial will likely shed light on their shenanigans. Or why they wouldn’t somehow try to wrap this thing up without a trial, even if they wouldn’t agree to give her a break. As a former prosecutor, you would know better than I what the motivation is to bring him to trial. He sounds intelligent, and surely knows that his goose is cooked — why wasn’t a plea bargain a possibility? Is it all showmanship?
Pam:
It may seem harsh but I don’t see that Whitey doesn’t understand all that I’ve written. A long time ago I wrote that his goal had to be staying in Plymouth as long as possible. Being 83 and knowing you’ve lost your freedom and understanding that forever he will be subject to the whims of others is a lousy existence but it is a fact of life for Whitey.
I agree he is entitled to a good defense and J.W. Carney is doing his utmost for him but everyone knows it is futile. What Whitey has to do is recognize it and then decide how best to minimize the damage to others. If he throws some bombs they won’t be believed. Those damaged by them will deny them and the media will support their denials. He may feel better after doing that but so does a person who is hitting his head against a wall feel better after she stops.
You ask a good question – has there been any effort to have him plead guilty. There may have been but how can he when he’s going to deny being involved in over half the murders charged. The prosecutors having given deals to all the other gangsters must demand that Whitey accept he is everything they said he was, including a murderer of two young women for the purpose of getting some prurient pleasure. The prosecutors have no bargaining room because they have let people worse than Whitey back on the street to get Whitey; Whitey can’t possibly admit he was a vicious murderer of young women or that he was involved in so many other murders.
I think the talk of Whitey wanting to help Catherine Greig is same as the talk on the street that Whitey gave Weeks the OK to testify against him. It has no relation to reality. Greig can’t get a deal because she knows too much.
It comes down to a plea bargain being off the table because the parties can’t agree on its terms. Both sides are caught up in traps of their own making. That’s why Whitey’s only way out is to refuse to participate — then he can claim he never murdered the people he was accused of murdering.
My question is what if Whitey does have hard evidence of immunity…such as a wire of the critical conversation that former FBI agent Connolly has referred to?
Jean:
The plain fact is that he doesn’t. No AUSA would have the authority to tell a person he can murder anyone. It was a good theory thought up by his defense counsel but it flies in the face of everything in the history of law. We even see today people are questioning the right of the president to kill other people in foreign countries on his own initiative. If the president’s right to do it is questioned, how can it possibly be thought an assistant US attorney could give someone an open ticket to murder whomever he will. If he actually did do it, which is impossible, but assuming he did, no court would say the government was bound by that decision. It’s like an AUSA selling you the federal courthouse in Boston. I don’t think after you owned it the judges would listen to you when you told them they had to move.
I disagree, but just a little. Whitey’s testimony will accomplish nothing in the trial – he’s all but convicted already. However, it will be extremely powerful to anyone listening for a man to admit murdering people, and give his reasons why. That is a rare thing. The affect upon the jurors, audience, judge, and lawyers cannot be predicted.
Second, the crooks and news people that have wrote books did so through research from everything under the sun except Whitey. You don’t think he has new information, or context to add to this history of Boston? the FBI? I absolutely think he has a great story to tell and it will be cathartic, not exculpatory, to tell it.
Jim P:
I agree with you as much as you suggest that his testimony will be riveting. But it will be something enjoyed by us and as you say extremely powerful and rare. But why should Whitey want to be in the business of entertaining us? He can’t win even as I pointed out if the jury acquits him.
I’m sure he’ll provide a ton of new information. It will allow his enemies to write more book about him. It may even be cathartic for him. But he will be beat up on cross-examination and come away having told his story but it will be reported not as he wants but through the pens of his enemies.
It will surely continue to brutalize his extended family. The prosecutors are looking to use him to bring Billy into disrepute. They can ask leading questions like: “When you were murdering people in the house of the Flemmi family next door to your brother Billy’s house, was he home?” “Weren’t some of the murders you committed in the house next door to where your Brother Billy lived? Isn’t it true as shown in this picture that there was a common walkway to both houses and you had to walk by Billy’s front door to get into the house next door? So when you carried a body from the house next door you had to walk past Billy’s front door? And, if Billy opened that door he would have seen you carrying those bodies? So you felt secure that if that happened Billy would not have turned you in and would have kept your murders quiet?”
I could go on. The prosecutors won’t care what Whitey answers. The media will report: “Whitey carried the people he murdered past Billy’s front door when Billy was home. He depended on Billy not to expose his murders.
As I said, you’re absolutely right from our point of view it will be a wonderful show. But if Whitey for the sake of getting his version out and to feel better by doing it is willing to forever maul his family’s reputation then he will testify. A real man would think better of it.